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I should be asleep right now, but wifi was throwing fits and so instead I fiddled with it for ages. Oh, yeah, I also watched another disk of Angel S4. Tsk.


I realise now that I've seen this episode before. Not sure when or where, exactly, but I've definitely seen it before. But, yeah, I definitely remembered the plot from way before, and I remembered feeling really, really angry on Fred's behalf at how Angel and Gunn reacted. maybe especially how Gunn reacted. I don't want you to be a murderer is fine as motivations go, but she still feels like one! She just doesn't have the satisfaction to go with it. Way to go, Gunn.

Things I liked - Wesley. Lilah. Wesley&Lilah. Lilah&Wesley. Lilah 'stalking' Wesley. Lilah's hair, 80s though it was. Lilah's gift. *pets*

Angel&Lilah, too, rang my bells in all the right way.

I'm struggling to remember, actually, as I watched all four episodes and much stuff happened in there that related to Cordy and Connor but I don't remember what happened where - um, it was good, anyway. I'm generally happy with the Connor and Cordelia progression. Oh! Yes, they fought a vampire together, didn't they? I loved Cordelia asking what she should wear - you're right, [livejournal.com profile] selenak! - and the kiss was really rather sweet, as was Connor's anger. And him asking Angel for help - that happened in this episode, right? - was spot on.

Things I didn't like - Gunn. Bleargh. Gunn. He actually overtook my dislike of Fred in this episode, mainly because Fred kicked ass and Gunn was wishy washy, even when committing murder. Jesus, if you're gonna do it, don't sit there and martyr yourself, for crying out loud! Take some responsibility for your actions - "I did it so you wouldn't have to" - how does that make Fred feel? When Giles killed Ben, he didn't go bleating to Buffy about it. Jesus.

Anyway, overall, I dug this episode. 8/10.



Spin the Bottle, how cute! And I remember this episode too. No idea why. It's just these two I remember, and, erm, nope, drawing a blank. Har har.

Right. Wesley as Head Boy = adorable dork, especially when he nearly kills himself with his various implements. It's such a sharp contrast to action!Wesley that they both look like caricatures - which is odd, in a way, as action!Wesley is supposed to be Wesley after his character has developed for several years... right? Or not. Over-doing it is silly and - well, given how dark and dramatic everyone has become in this season, I found this episode hysterical, as it made it all seem like they'd fallen through into the Star Trek mirror universe - you know, the one where everyone is evil and tortured for no apparent reason? yep, that's the one. Cordelia is very upset about her hair, Wesley is - Wesley, Angel is convinced they're all mad and is a delightful boy, and Gunn is actually rather hot. Damn. How did that happen? See where a sense of occasional violence will get you?

What I didn't like about this episode was the implication that Connor would kill Angel in order to sleep with Cordelia. It wasn't supposed to be that, but it somehow came out that way, and it really irked me. Thinking on it, this might be one of my first impressions of S4 Connor, which explains why I have so little patience with him. He's very annoying in this episode, other than his conversation with Angel about fathers, that is. That was priceless.

Other stuff - oh, Cordelia's vision? Meh. I know it's the big bad - and does this mean that's she's seeing it as Cordy, or is the Beast waking up in her, or what? - but it just looks a bit like the horned demon that Jonathan turned into in Buffy and I can't take it seriously. Plus, fire effects are really hard to do, especially if you're going for the molten lava look.

But, still, a solid comedy episode, and the fighting between Wesley and Gunn was lovely. Also, horny!Cordy was a double plus. 8/10.




Apocalypse Nowish, and boy, is it ever. This episode rocked, from start to finish. It had me hiding behind my cushion, it had me with tears in my eyes, and only once did I cringe.

Right, the good bits first.

1. The fight! OMG, the fight rocked. It rocked because the demon won, and it rocked because our heroes got seriously beat up. It rocked because the body count was scary. It rocked because Angel got stabbed in the neck and blood came out of his mouth and did I mention that our heroes got beat up? I mean, I felt genuinely worried for them, even though I knew that they all made it through all right. It looked scary!

2. Wesley & Lilah - yeah, I'm gonna keep saying that. Just, all of it.

3. Connor & Cordelia, and the kiss while the sky burned and tears down Connor's cheeks and how hesitantly he opened his mouth against hers.

4. Angel, watching them in bed, and there is absolutely nothing in his eyes.

5. The spot where Connor was born? Man, that rocked. Because I can't remember what happens, exactly, and so I don't know if it's significant, but it sounds it. So, um, yeah, if it's a red herring, it's a good one.

6. Fred and Gunn and taking a break. I'm totally with Fred on this one, and if Gunn can't see that she needs a break, then he's... he's just wrong.

7. Wesley. *pets* Wesley helping Gunn. *pets some more*

8. The spell, and the sky raining fire, and Lilah looking out of the window and hugging herself.

In fact, I'd give this episode a whopping 9.5/10, but for one teeny thing -

THE OH-MY-GOD-THAT'S-THE-WORST-SEX-SCENE-EVER bit.

Yeah, that bit. Where Charisma is lying perfectly syill and not moving any part of her body or indeed changing expression. Yeah, 'cause when I have sex, I also prefer to lie like a corpse. It looks so fake and plastic, and Connor's pale skin, slowly flushing, looks so real in comparison to Cordelia's monotan that it looks like he's fucking a blow-up doll. Seriously.

So, in light of the above, I give this 9/10.




Corpses! Corpses everywhere! I guessed zombies from the title, you see. Actually, I guessed dead lawyers from the title too. The Latin, it puns.

Another cracking episode. It made me really, really wonder about the state of Wesley and Lilah's relationship, as she looked so genuinely emotional in the tunnel as he's leaving that I wouldn't be surprised if she got someplace safe afterwards, had a good cry and then mentally slapped herself for showing weakness. So, I'm gonna take a stab in the dark and say they got under each other's skin. 'Cause, after all, we know that Wesley went in to get her out - and he carried her, too. Awww. The Gone with the Wind fan in me is going all gooey. Did I mention I secretly want them to just smooch a lot, and then have cuteness abound? yeah, I'm sick, I know. But 'cute' and Wesley&Lilah just don't go together, so we're safe.

So we also have Gavin confessing that he finds Lilah more frightening than the big bad and - let's be honest - wouldn't you?

Also, does Connor have a thing about strangling attractive women or is it just me? First Cordelia, then Lilah. Does he ever do it to Fred, 'cause that would be a hat-trick. Of course, the hand-on-the-throat thing isn't really about strangulation, but about demonstrating power. And Connor desperately needs to demonstrate some power at this point as Lilah has shown precisely what she thinks of him - a weak little boy, capable of being brought down by some security guards. *pets* Ah, Lilah.

Did I mention that this episode should be all about the Lilah and Wesley action?

The Angel & Cordelia action, too, was a sight to behold. "Now take your new boyfriend and get out" - yep, totally. That's Angel to a T.

And - and other stuff. I can barely keep my eyes open now so I forget. But Gunn harping on at Wesley is really getting old and if he doesn't shut up soon I'm going to just hate him. Fred was a little better, in that she picked up a weapon and didn't wibble. Lorne was lovely in not wanting to fight and I fully respect that decision to actually, you know, live.

Wesley looks hotter and hotter the more bruises he accumulates. If he gets any more beaten up I shall simply expire on the spot.

9/10.


Doubtless I missed much, both because I watched four episodes at once and because I am so tired I am falling head-first into my keyboard. Meh.

I owe some people some drabbles. Tomorrow, cupcakes, during my lunch-hour. You shall have your slice of pie.

I.

Date: 2006-04-20 05:48 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] selenak.livejournal.com
I remembered feeling really, really angry on Fred's behalf at how Angel and Gunn reacted. maybe especially how Gunn reacted. I don't want you to be a murderer is fine as motivations go, but she still feels like one! She just doesn't have the satisfaction to go with it. Way to go, Gunn.

Oh, I agree. But as far as plots are concerned, I thought it was well done, because that starts the implosion of their relationship, and not surprisingly so.

And him asking Angel for help - that happened in this episode, right? - was spot on.

No, that was in Apocalpse, Nowish. Re: Supersymmetry, observe that Connor's idea of how to cheer Cordelia up is to hand her a weapon and take her to a fight. Which isn't just typical Connor but a contrast to Gunn's and Angel's attitudes towards Fred in the same episode.

Spin the Bottle: What I didn't like about this episode was the implication that Connor would kill Angel in order to sleep with Cordelia. It wasn't supposed to be that, but it somehow came out that way, and it really irked me.

Point taken, and agreed, it can be seen that way, though I think given he never uses a stake in his fight with Angel (when he seriously tries to kill Angel, he does have one ready, you know) we're meant to assume he's just intending a mutual beating up with him winning. Still, as you say, everyone is over the top in this episode as a part of the theme, and I think that goes for Connor, too.

Sidenote: Lorne's framing narration, which is revealed to take place in an empty room with no audience, alone, in the end, ties eerily with Not Fade Away and the fact that Lorne leaves the gang in the end, doesn't it?

Apocalypse Nowish: oh, I love, love, love the episode as well, for the same reasons.

Wesley and Lilah: one question - when Wesley tells her to keep the glasses on and Lilah, after a moment of hesitation, does - to me that always struck me as the moment where she surrenders some of the power of the relationship to him. Because yes, he turns her tease back on her, but also, she's willing to do it when she hadn't meant to, and thus she admits she needs him more than he needs her. ("Keep the glasses on" together with "I didn't even think of you while you were there" and "Don't embarrass yourself, Lilah" in "Habeas Corpses" are the three moments where I think Wesley is cruel towards Lilah in a way that doesn't just make me feel for her but - at that moment - dislike him.)

Connor & Cordelia, and the kiss while the sky burned and tears down Connor's cheeks and how hesitantly he opened his mouth against hers.

Yes. There is a strange poetry in that scene, and he's so vulnerable and it means so much to him. Breaks my heart each time I watch it.

Angel, watching them in bed, and there is absolutely nothing in his eyes.

Oh yeah. Poor DB gets flak for his acting sometimes, but I think he's dead on, no pun intended, in season 4 and that expression would be one of the examples. (His best scene ever, from an acting pov, in either show, imo, of course, comes in the finale, but that's way ahead of you.)

Worst Sex Scene Ever: I know what you mean. Mind you, of course it's meant to come across as bad and wrong and not hot, etc., but I think Charisma just isn't good in non-comedic sex scenes. Other pieces of evidence: "Waiting in the Wings" in s3 (embarassing), and the Kendall/Logan sex scenes in Veronica Mars. Judging from interviews, they make her deeply uncomfortable, and it shows. The only time we see Cordy in a vaguely sexual context looking like she's enjoying herself are those smooches with Xander in s2 and s3 of BTVS, and like Charisma said in the introduction to BTVS they recorded for the DVD edition, she felt safe with him.

Re: I.

Date: 2006-08-21 12:55 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] selenak.livejournal.com
How much actually happened?

Everything happened. People just don't remember it the way it did. What happened was a general mindwipe, not a reality shift. Remember, what Illyria tells Wesley is "..and yet Fred changed when her memories did."

(Wesley: "Fred's memories were changed?"

Illyria: "In places.")

I.e. if reality itself would have been changed as opposed to memories, Illyria would have phrased it differently.

Thus when Wesley breaks the Orlon window, reality doesn't change but Wesley, Illyria and Connor now remember their original memories in addition to the artificial ones. Whether Anyone not present during the breakage also remembers is open to debate and fanfic.

DB's best acting: I meant the scene with Connor in Home, yes. Breaks my heart each time.

II.

Date: 2006-04-20 05:48 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] selenak.livejournal.com
Also, does Connor have a thing about strangling attractive women or is it just me? First Cordelia, then Lilah. Does he ever do it to Fred, 'cause that would be a hat-trick.

No, he doesn't. (Or to anyone else of the female persuasion.) Cordy and Lilah are special.*g* On another note, I think he got that gesture from Daddy. Aside from Angel doing it to Lilah all the time, Angel does it to Connor, too. (More recently in Supersymmetry, where Connor says "I'm used to it".

Re: Connor and Fred, it's interesting that despite her being the first woman after Sunny (the girl he met in his first episode) he was longer exposed to, he never showed the slightest romantic interest in her. He also doesn't hold a grudge against her for the tasering, though he doesn't forget it (when Fred in a later episode by mistake threatens him with a crossbow, Connor says "I thought you were more a of a taser kind of girl"); he accepts it as due punishment he received. It's fodder for my theory that Fred, not Cordelia, was the mother figure for Connor among the A.I. crew if anyone was.

Of course, the hand-on-the-throat thing isn't really about strangulation, but about demonstrating power. And Connor desperately needs to demonstrate some power at this point as Lilah has shown precisely what she thinks of him - a weak little boy, capable of being brought down by some security guards. *pets* Ah, Lilah.

Not Lilah's brightest move, though; you don't tell a superpowered kid with anger issues that you're going to dissect him. (Though she could make an educated guess he wouldn't kill her any more than Angel did.) What I find interesting is that Connor doesn't hold that against her, either. Bear in mind he does try to save her from the Beast a while later. [livejournal.com profile] boheminancachet suggested he would have reacted differently if it had been Gavin, i.e. has some of the double standards for male and female adversaries, but I don't know. Connor doesn't have the socialisation to imprint on that.

The Angel & Cordelia action, too, was a sight to behold. "Now take your new boyfriend and get out" - yep, totally. That's Angel to a T.

It was. Love the scene. Curse it in terms of being within, not without the story, because Angel makes a big mistake here. Because Connor has started to come around. In Apocalypse, Nowish he went to Angel on his own initiative and asked him to talk to Cordelia and said "Dad" in a non-hostile manner; in Habeas Corpses, he does not pull back when Angel hugs him in the building and actually teases him in a non-hostile manner as well, about the zombies. When the gang is back at the hotel, the first thing he does is making a step towards Angel and saying, in an uncertain voice, "Dad...". And then Angel doesn't just kick Cordelia out, he kicks Connor out as well. As opposed to the Tough Love act in Deep Down, not for a genuine crime on Connor's part.

Re: Wesley and his love life, [livejournal.com profile] karabair and I once argued about whether or not he has a madonna/whore complex with Fred and Lilah. Your take?

Re: II.

Date: 2006-04-20 03:31 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] likeadeuce.livejournal.com
We've been through this, doll. In Wesley's complex, ANGEL is Madonna. Fred is part of a whole different complex ;).

Seriously. . .one day soon I will get season 4 and have more intelligent thoughts on all this.

In brief. . .I'm a fan of Fred and Gunn individually, and of Fred/Gunn, and I still can't say a lot in favor of either of them in this arc. "Supersymmetry" makes no sense to me, aside from the great Wes/Fred and Lilah/Angel scenes (and Weslah, duh). I've got a whole essay in me re: the "glasses" scene, but I have to admit I'm kind of on his side with the "glasses on" -- he didn't ask her for it, you know, she offered -- and it's not like she was going to do it if she didn't choose. The striking thing to me about that scene is that it plays so much differently than it reads. The amused and baffled smile Wes gives her, that almost-laugh when he asks "are you finished?" -- to me, his reaction is all about Lilah, as is asking her to leave the glasses on. It's her willingness to do it that's intriguing to him.

Re: the last look she gives him in that scene in the tunnel -- another perfect rescue fantasy. He saved her, she gives him a regretful look, then he can go back to the gang and his true calling, with just enough regret that if he was a different kind of man, he might have gone with her. Wesley couldn't have scripted it better. And of course, Lilah's going to be perfectly happy to leave it that way, oh yes ;)

Re: II.

Date: 2006-04-20 05:50 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] selenak.livejournal.com
We've been through this, doll. In Wesley's complex, ANGEL is Madonna.

Well, yeah, but it's even more complicated because Angelus clearly is the whore, as evidenced by Wesley's behaviour towards him. *veg*

Re: the last look she gives him in that scene in the tunnel -- another perfect rescue fantasy. He saved her, she gives him a regretful look, then he can go back to the gang and his true calling, with just enough regret that if he was a different kind of man, he might have gone with her. Wesley couldn't have scripted it better. And of course, Lilah's going to be perfectly happy to leave it that way, oh yes ;)

*v.v.v.eg* You're right. This is Wesley in "I could not love thee, dear, as much, loved I not honour more" mode.

Once [livejournal.com profile] kangeiko gets to Salvage we shall discuss Wesley's post-factum rewriting of his relationship with Lilah and his behaviour and motivations versus how it actually happened, yes?

Err, why doesn't Supersymmetry make sense to you, though, as far as Fred and Gunn are concerned? I mean, I thought Fred's wish to take (painful) revenge was absolutely plausible (this is the girl who tasered Connor for deceiving her), and she and Gunn clearly have each other on unrealistic pedestals. Hence "Charles doesn't have it in him" and "if you kill him, you'll be haunted by demons" etc. So mutual falling of the pedestals ensues. Gunn committing murder so she doesn't is obnoxious, yes, but it's not ooc for Gunn.

Re: II.

Date: 2006-04-20 03:33 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] likeadeuce.livejournal.com
PS -- Lilah gets a hand around the throat from Angel (in that vision thing), Wesley (in Tomorrow) and here, Connor. Plus getting punched by Lindsey, beat up by Billy, and brained with a lamp by Bethany.

Now why is it Cordelia who takes the combat training, I ask?

Re: II.

Date: 2006-04-20 05:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] selenak.livejournal.com
Indeed, indeed. And you forgot Faith who does the hand around the throat to her in Five by Five, plus there are at least two more Angel instances I can think of which shall not be named in order to tease Vic.

Lilah Morgan: in need of martial arts training for most of her career...

Re: II.

Date: 2006-04-20 08:27 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] likeadeuce.livejournal.com
Of course, she's a pretty good shot, so maybe she thinks that makes up for it?

Re: II.

Date: 2006-04-21 10:28 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] selenak.livejournal.com
Likely (did she and Wesley ever practice gun shooting together, one wonders), though in the case of Angel, it's sort of pointless (she could only slow him down a bit that way), plus I notice that in each of the throat-grabbing occasions, Lilah is far from her weapon.

She likes the risky life!

Re: II.

Date: 2006-04-21 01:52 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] likeadeuce.livejournal.com
That's Lilah for you -- she's impatient and skips the important steps!

Re: II.

Date: 2006-08-21 12:46 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] selenak.livejournal.com
Er - I wonder what it signifies, because it has to signify something, and not the same thing as asphyxiation between humans. For one thing, it's a threatening, semi-sexual gesture that has no opposite for vampires - while Angel pointing a knife at Connor's heart can be reversed with Connor pointing a stake at Angel's, the throat/choking/asphyxiation fixation that Angel has can't be. So what does that mean, then?

Hmmmm. You know, I've just thought of another precedent - after Darla has bitten Cordelia and is off having small children for a snack and Angel hunts her after vowing (yet again) that this time, she's going to die, what does he do when he catches up with her, and BEFORE it dawns on him that their baby is human, thus providing a better excuse for leaving Darla unstaked? He strangles her. Which as Darla herself points out to him is useless since she doesn't need to breathe. In conclusion: maybe Angel does it to establish dominance and an almost-kill in a way that leaves the object of his attention alive? And/or an attempt to play at humanity?

Angel really can't handle fatherhood any better than Angelus can. It might be another vamp thing, tho - being immortal and always more powerful than your offspring would doubtless set up the idea that the power balance can never be disrupted - that Angel will always be top dog, and everyone will have to yield to him. Like a dog, marking his territory, or somesuch.

Which makes it fascinating that he has no problem (or doesn't seem to) playing subordinate to Buffy as long as he's still in Sunnydale. But then Angel imprinted on Darla (and Darla and Buffy are very much connected by both shows as shadow selves), and she definitely didn't defer to him in ye olde years; I'd say she dominates until he creates Drusilla (what with the "am I learning?" question implying that this is his graduation piece, roughly a century after he himself has been created), and then they're about equal, though Darla still makes the big decisions if you look at it carefully (to wit: throwing him out when he gets the soul, taking him in temporarily in China, throwing him out again).

Still, I wonder whether it's gender related - there can't be any male family/community member Angel isn't the boss off, but there can be a female one.

Sidenote: Connor reacts much better to female authority, too, and I don't just mean Cordelia. Faith dressing him down isn't responded to by anger or resentment (as it would have been if it had been Angel, or Gunn for that matter) but awe and delight (he all but goes "Faith is awesome!" later when talking to Cordy), and of course he has no problem with Jasmine.

I do think that if he'd stayed with Fred he would have begun to look down on her for yielding to him - as you said, relinquishing the moral high ground. I do think that, for Wesley, it's a very old-fashioned, strict male dominant/female submissive view. Lilah and Buffy fall well outside of that and he has some trouble dealing with both.

How about Virginia then? She was his girlfriend for several months, and apparantly they had a happy relationship. Though Carrie pointed out to me that when Virginia says Wesley being shot brought home the danger of his life to her, it's Wesley, not Virginia, who immediately jumps from that to the conclusion "you want to call it quits" and that might connect to Wesley's idea that he can't possibly deserve a happy fulfilled sexual relationship, and if a woman doesn't walk out on him, there is something wrong with her.





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