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kangeikoWhere single-person narratives dominate the folktale, the montage of characters now has strength in pop-culture. We have multi-character shows and tales, where it is unclear where our loyalties are expected to lie. I'm talking about shows, texts and films such as Deadwood, Rome, Star Trek (in its many incarnations, although perhaps not TOS), Babylon 5, X-Men, Serenity/Firefly, Carnivale, Fables, E.R., Third Watch and The West Wing. I am not talking about 'buddy shows' such as Supernatural or about texts such as Buffy, Angel, Alias, Harry Potter or Pirates of the Caribbean which have a central character around which the action revolves. Those would be examples of folktales or quests.
These are mainly notes for when![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
athena25 and I actually get around to writing all of this up; if any scholarly work already exists in this area, please do point me in that direction. athena25, luv, do you want to add to this with the arcana stuff you came up with?
The Archetypes I have identified thus far:
1. The outsider
The opening scene is often used to announce the villain or the hero in a folktale, and to begin the action. So: we have the introduction of Voldemort in Harry Potter, Sydney Bristow in Alias, and Buffy and Angel in their respective shows. In contrast, the opening scene of the montage discourse, we are given a character through whose eyes we will initially view the action; crucially, they are not the major character in the discourse, nor the most powerful. In Deadwood, we are introduced to Seth Bullock. In Rome, we have Lucius Vorenus; in Carnivale, it is Samson; in The West Wing, it's Sam Seaborn. In all of these cases, it is arguably the ' downtrodden everyman' - the one who is slightly apart due to low status, youth or other disadvantage - who is given voice. All of these characters are slightly apart from the rest of the arcana and will serve as our eyes because they will make the familiar strange to our eyes (Shklovsky: to make the stone stony).
2. The patriarch
The most powerful male in the group at the opening of the show - Al Swearengen, Julius Caesar, Jean-Luc Picard, G'Kar (does anyone wish to argue this? It would be interesting - other interpretations could have Kosh, or maybe Sinclair, but I am taking the 'beginning' as The Gathering), Jed Bartlett - may not be introduced until partway through the first episode, chapter or section. The outsider(s) will not necessarily encounter the patriarch - indeed, I'm going to argue that they do not, and it is impreative that they do not, at least until later on. In Deadwood, the fast meeting between Wild Bill Hickok and Seth Bullock left me confused, as I had taken Wild Bill for a patriarch figure, and it made no narrative sense for the meeting to happen that early. Notice that Al does not meet Seth until later or that Jed Bartlett is not introduced to the viewers until the very end of the first episode. Even then, he does not interact with Sam, who is our eyes; that is saved until a later episode.
The threat to the patriarch's power is one of the main plot strands in a montage/discourse, although, I do not wish to call it a strand, as it does not directly affect the outsider but instead is like a river, dragging the setting of the show, rather than the outsider himself. Thus, the threat to Al affects all of Deadwood and not Seth directly, and the threat to Picard affects the entire Federation (although, in the case of TNG, I do not see an outsider presented). In Rome, each and every threat to Caesar's power naturally affects all of Rome, and Pullo and Vorenus with it; it does not, however, affect them first and foremost.
3. The stately mother (a.k.a the crone)
We have Servilia in Rome, Maddie in Deadwood, Inara in Firefly and Abby Bartlett in The West Wing. The stately mother is a sexual person, although you would not automatically think of her as such; she only appears thus when she chooses to be. She is primarily a female counter to the patriarch, and will occasionally oppose him. Maddie is a threat to both Al and Cy; Abby is one of the few who can genuinely oppose Bartlett's plans within the West Wing itself. Servilia, of course, is first lover and then genuine threat to Caesar. The stately mother will often have younger females in her care, at least one of which will be significant within the main group of characters: Octavia, Joannie, Kaylee and Amy, for Servilia, Maddie, Inara and Abby, respectively. I would also argue that Delenn and Jean Grey also fall within this category.
4. The dashing right-hand man
The right-hand man is a feature of more military-minded discourses, which feature formal chains of command. We have Riker in TNG and Mark Antony in Rome. I would also argue that Dax serves the function of the dashing right-hand man in DSN, albeit in a formerly male guise. Dax will often behave in a way that conforms to the dashing r-h man archetype, in that she will be brave, smart and impeccably turned out. Dax is also allowed to have sex for pleasure, rather than long-lasting relationships, and has a genuine optimism that also seems to be required. The r-h man is not necessarily a womaniser, but he is a male archetype who affirms sex for pleasure, as a necessary mirror of the desirable young maiden. He is what every woman desires, and what every man aspires to be, asathena25 pointed out.
The dashing right-hand man may not necessarily be a formal XO. For instance, Tom Paris on Voyager fulfils the role while only being a Lieutenant. However, his share of screen time and A-plots is a great deal larger than Chakotay's. Furthermore, as Voyager has a stately mother in charge, the patriarch character would cover both Janeway and Chakotay - which safely slots Paris into the right-hand man slot, and puts Janeway and Chakotay in opposition over the command of the Maquis crew.
One possible choice for a dashing right-hand man in the case of The West Wing would be the VP, John Hoynes. This would be more difficult to reconcile to the archetype, as the r-h man is loyal to the patriarch; however, Hoynes's behaviour - although at times rebellious, as is Mark Antony's - in the end always includes a capitulation on his part, or an indulgence on the part of the patriarch. he is never a genuine threat, and is often an active ally. He is also handsome, dashing and relatively young, which is another requirement.
5. The desirable young maiden (a.k.a. the maiden)
This is Deanna Troi in TNG, Octavia in Rome, Kaylee in Firefly (and River in the film Serenity), and Kes in ST:V. We can also have a male version - Julian Bashir in DSN, as a necessary mirror to the female dashing right-hand man. This is played with in Our Man Bashir, but it is ultimately The Way of the Warrior that sealed it for me: Dax can play at being a helpless maiden, but she flirts and is self-possessed in a manner that ill-becomes her maiden costume. Worf, the warrior, is discomforted. Bashir, by contrast, pursues Dax in an about-turn. Later, we have the introduction of Ezri, who better fills the desirable young maiden role of courtly love, and thus allows Bashir to make the transition away from that role. Relating to Deanna, we have the strong relationship to older, more sexually forward women, and occasionally a father-like link to the patriarch character. This is also the case with Kes, who has strong links to Janeway. Other examples would include Donna Moss and Zoe Bartlett.
6. The sexual woman (a.k.a. the mother)
I dislike using the maiden/mother/crone set-up, as two of the three often over-lap and I would furthermore not describe any of the character as a 'crone' - the level of wisdom and power that implies is not necessarily reflective of characters such as Maddie or janeway. However, neither would I call them simply 'mothers', as they clearly do not fulfil that role either. Instead, if they are stately mothers - powerful and regal, but still sexual and assailable - we must have someone in between, who has some power, but is more sexual than she is powerful. Here, we have Lwaxana Troi, Atia of the Julii, Inara - the cross-over between stately mother and sexual woman - CJ Cregg, Alma Garrett, Trixie and Susan Ivanova. We would also have Brenda from Six Feet Under. The sexual woman embodies the carnal appetites, much as the maiden symbolises courtly love and the stately mother symbolises power and maternity. The sexual woman will be a sexual creature without it leading to the pain and obligation of childbirth. This can either be done by having her be too old for childbirth, or by putting her in a position where children are 'not allowed' - the military, in Ivanova's case, or a brothel, in Trixie's. Alma Garrett is a rather young sexual woman, but she is, first and foremost, a widow, which figures 'death' as a sign before the follower of 'children', implying, at most, a still-birth. Alma can indulge her carnal appetite, but as she is no longer a maiden, she will not be able to bear its fruits.
The sexual woman will acknowledge the appeal of the patriarch, but she will often not be linked with him - that link is for the stately mother. This is one argument why Beverly Crusher is more a stately mother than a sexual woman: for one thing, she is not sexual but is instead aloof and self-possessed; for another, she is a genuine match for Picard where Lwaxana can only desire him. The main relationship the sexual woman will have will be with her children, if she has any - with Sofia, in Alma's case; with Wesley, in Beverly's. Atia's main relationships are with her children - those with other men come and go. Women like Brenda, CJ and Ivanova, who do not have children, are in an interesting position, because they are not simply shown to be sexual and ambitious, they are shown to be thus to the exclusion of nature and childbearing.
The character of Kai Winn is interesting, in that she initially starts out as a stately mother - albeit one opposed to the Sisko-patriarch - who then morphs into a sexual woman. This ultimately leads to her downfall, reinforcing the idea of sex as something to rise above, as it is somehow dirty and pollutes the body (and body-politik).
7. The prodigy / the boy genius
Ban Hawkins is blessed in Carnivale; Wesley Crusher is extraordinarily gifted in TNG; Octavian is terrifyingly intelligent in Rome. All of these young boys are precocious and with paths mapped out for them. They begin the show as playing pieces, moved about by the patriarch, and will often either become patriarchs or stately antagonists.
8. The stately antagonist
The stately antagonist is the counter to the patriarch - the opposing side's equivalent. That would be Magneto to our Xavier and Pompey to our Caesar. Star Trek went one step further, and created an entire race of these stately antagonists: initially the Romulans, they later became the Klingons, with the Romulans slipping to the role of dishonourable liars. In Carnivale, we also have Brother Justin - with Iris as the stately mother/sexual woman twin archetype - and in Deadwood we briefly had Wild Bill Hickok. Interestingly, Wild Bill was presented in such as a way as to make the viwer wonder if he was the patriarch, rather than the antagonist; it is only with his death and the arrival of Cy Tolliver that he becomes the stately antagonist, and Cy the petty one.
9. The petty antagonist / the trickster
Q in TNG; Dukat in DSN; Cy Tolliver in Deadwood and perhaps Cato and Cicero in Rome. The trickster is not necessarily a figure of fun, although he can be played this way. Rather, he does not have the vision or perhaps the resources to be a true counter to the statesmanship of the patriarch. The trickster would be linked to Loki, but would often be a middle-aged man, to allow for the play of comedy without lapsing into pathos. An example of a race of petty antagonists used in Star Trek would be the Ferengi.
10. The dishonourable liar/ the traitor
The Romulans and their cloaking device quickly cast them in the role of the dishonourable liar, although the Cardassians could also be used in this way (they were too vicious to be a petty antagonist, and too limited in their vision to be a stately one). I would argue that Brutus is not a traitor in the Rome mythos, as he does what he is compelled to do by the demands of his mother, and by Caesar moving against him first. Indeed, I would argue that there are no traitors in Rome, as there are plenty of antagonists and they are not needed. In Firefly, however, Jayne is a traitor, albeit a reformed one: he starts off as a hero, briefly becomes a villain, and in the end he redeems himself. However, the act of betrayal in Ariel means that is the show's traitor. In Babylon 5, we ironically have an entire race of traitors and dishonourable liars - the humans, led by Clark. He is not simply a villain, he is a deceitful villain, who gains power by stealth. He does not do this for merely his own personal gain, but for a thirst for power over a much wider area. He is thus not a petty antagonist or trickster, and certainly not a stately antagonist, but a traitor to his own race.
11. The warrior
We'd have Worf, Titus Pullo and a few others in this category. The warrior lives by the same code as the stately antagonists and the patriarch, regardless of whose side they are on. This code might be a mercernary one, such as the one Jayne follows, or a strict honourable one, like Worf's; regardless, loss of face will often be the worst blow that can be dealt to a warriror. They are, however, visibly and publicly subordinate to the patriarch, and will often be the everyman example of capable men following their rule. This will affirm the wisdom and power of the patriarch, by demonstrating their superiority over obviously powerful men such as Worf and Jayne.
If anyone comes up with any more or has comments on the ones above, please comment. I am rather interested in this whole thing.
These are mainly notes for when
athena25 and I actually get around to writing all of this up; if any scholarly work already exists in this area, please do point me in that direction. athena25, luv, do you want to add to this with the arcana stuff you came up with?The Archetypes I have identified thus far:
1. The outsider
The opening scene is often used to announce the villain or the hero in a folktale, and to begin the action. So: we have the introduction of Voldemort in Harry Potter, Sydney Bristow in Alias, and Buffy and Angel in their respective shows. In contrast, the opening scene of the montage discourse, we are given a character through whose eyes we will initially view the action; crucially, they are not the major character in the discourse, nor the most powerful. In Deadwood, we are introduced to Seth Bullock. In Rome, we have Lucius Vorenus; in Carnivale, it is Samson; in The West Wing, it's Sam Seaborn. In all of these cases, it is arguably the ' downtrodden everyman' - the one who is slightly apart due to low status, youth or other disadvantage - who is given voice. All of these characters are slightly apart from the rest of the arcana and will serve as our eyes because they will make the familiar strange to our eyes (Shklovsky: to make the stone stony).
2. The patriarch
The most powerful male in the group at the opening of the show - Al Swearengen, Julius Caesar, Jean-Luc Picard, G'Kar (does anyone wish to argue this? It would be interesting - other interpretations could have Kosh, or maybe Sinclair, but I am taking the 'beginning' as The Gathering), Jed Bartlett - may not be introduced until partway through the first episode, chapter or section. The outsider(s) will not necessarily encounter the patriarch - indeed, I'm going to argue that they do not, and it is impreative that they do not, at least until later on. In Deadwood, the fast meeting between Wild Bill Hickok and Seth Bullock left me confused, as I had taken Wild Bill for a patriarch figure, and it made no narrative sense for the meeting to happen that early. Notice that Al does not meet Seth until later or that Jed Bartlett is not introduced to the viewers until the very end of the first episode. Even then, he does not interact with Sam, who is our eyes; that is saved until a later episode.
The threat to the patriarch's power is one of the main plot strands in a montage/discourse, although, I do not wish to call it a strand, as it does not directly affect the outsider but instead is like a river, dragging the setting of the show, rather than the outsider himself. Thus, the threat to Al affects all of Deadwood and not Seth directly, and the threat to Picard affects the entire Federation (although, in the case of TNG, I do not see an outsider presented). In Rome, each and every threat to Caesar's power naturally affects all of Rome, and Pullo and Vorenus with it; it does not, however, affect them first and foremost.
3. The stately mother (a.k.a the crone)
We have Servilia in Rome, Maddie in Deadwood, Inara in Firefly and Abby Bartlett in The West Wing. The stately mother is a sexual person, although you would not automatically think of her as such; she only appears thus when she chooses to be. She is primarily a female counter to the patriarch, and will occasionally oppose him. Maddie is a threat to both Al and Cy; Abby is one of the few who can genuinely oppose Bartlett's plans within the West Wing itself. Servilia, of course, is first lover and then genuine threat to Caesar. The stately mother will often have younger females in her care, at least one of which will be significant within the main group of characters: Octavia, Joannie, Kaylee and Amy, for Servilia, Maddie, Inara and Abby, respectively. I would also argue that Delenn and Jean Grey also fall within this category.
4. The dashing right-hand man
The right-hand man is a feature of more military-minded discourses, which feature formal chains of command. We have Riker in TNG and Mark Antony in Rome. I would also argue that Dax serves the function of the dashing right-hand man in DSN, albeit in a formerly male guise. Dax will often behave in a way that conforms to the dashing r-h man archetype, in that she will be brave, smart and impeccably turned out. Dax is also allowed to have sex for pleasure, rather than long-lasting relationships, and has a genuine optimism that also seems to be required. The r-h man is not necessarily a womaniser, but he is a male archetype who affirms sex for pleasure, as a necessary mirror of the desirable young maiden. He is what every woman desires, and what every man aspires to be, as
athena25 pointed out.The dashing right-hand man may not necessarily be a formal XO. For instance, Tom Paris on Voyager fulfils the role while only being a Lieutenant. However, his share of screen time and A-plots is a great deal larger than Chakotay's. Furthermore, as Voyager has a stately mother in charge, the patriarch character would cover both Janeway and Chakotay - which safely slots Paris into the right-hand man slot, and puts Janeway and Chakotay in opposition over the command of the Maquis crew.
One possible choice for a dashing right-hand man in the case of The West Wing would be the VP, John Hoynes. This would be more difficult to reconcile to the archetype, as the r-h man is loyal to the patriarch; however, Hoynes's behaviour - although at times rebellious, as is Mark Antony's - in the end always includes a capitulation on his part, or an indulgence on the part of the patriarch. he is never a genuine threat, and is often an active ally. He is also handsome, dashing and relatively young, which is another requirement.
5. The desirable young maiden (a.k.a. the maiden)
This is Deanna Troi in TNG, Octavia in Rome, Kaylee in Firefly (and River in the film Serenity), and Kes in ST:V. We can also have a male version - Julian Bashir in DSN, as a necessary mirror to the female dashing right-hand man. This is played with in Our Man Bashir, but it is ultimately The Way of the Warrior that sealed it for me: Dax can play at being a helpless maiden, but she flirts and is self-possessed in a manner that ill-becomes her maiden costume. Worf, the warrior, is discomforted. Bashir, by contrast, pursues Dax in an about-turn. Later, we have the introduction of Ezri, who better fills the desirable young maiden role of courtly love, and thus allows Bashir to make the transition away from that role. Relating to Deanna, we have the strong relationship to older, more sexually forward women, and occasionally a father-like link to the patriarch character. This is also the case with Kes, who has strong links to Janeway. Other examples would include Donna Moss and Zoe Bartlett.
6. The sexual woman (a.k.a. the mother)
I dislike using the maiden/mother/crone set-up, as two of the three often over-lap and I would furthermore not describe any of the character as a 'crone' - the level of wisdom and power that implies is not necessarily reflective of characters such as Maddie or janeway. However, neither would I call them simply 'mothers', as they clearly do not fulfil that role either. Instead, if they are stately mothers - powerful and regal, but still sexual and assailable - we must have someone in between, who has some power, but is more sexual than she is powerful. Here, we have Lwaxana Troi, Atia of the Julii, Inara - the cross-over between stately mother and sexual woman - CJ Cregg, Alma Garrett, Trixie and Susan Ivanova. We would also have Brenda from Six Feet Under. The sexual woman embodies the carnal appetites, much as the maiden symbolises courtly love and the stately mother symbolises power and maternity. The sexual woman will be a sexual creature without it leading to the pain and obligation of childbirth. This can either be done by having her be too old for childbirth, or by putting her in a position where children are 'not allowed' - the military, in Ivanova's case, or a brothel, in Trixie's. Alma Garrett is a rather young sexual woman, but she is, first and foremost, a widow, which figures 'death' as a sign before the follower of 'children', implying, at most, a still-birth. Alma can indulge her carnal appetite, but as she is no longer a maiden, she will not be able to bear its fruits.
The sexual woman will acknowledge the appeal of the patriarch, but she will often not be linked with him - that link is for the stately mother. This is one argument why Beverly Crusher is more a stately mother than a sexual woman: for one thing, she is not sexual but is instead aloof and self-possessed; for another, she is a genuine match for Picard where Lwaxana can only desire him. The main relationship the sexual woman will have will be with her children, if she has any - with Sofia, in Alma's case; with Wesley, in Beverly's. Atia's main relationships are with her children - those with other men come and go. Women like Brenda, CJ and Ivanova, who do not have children, are in an interesting position, because they are not simply shown to be sexual and ambitious, they are shown to be thus to the exclusion of nature and childbearing.
The character of Kai Winn is interesting, in that she initially starts out as a stately mother - albeit one opposed to the Sisko-patriarch - who then morphs into a sexual woman. This ultimately leads to her downfall, reinforcing the idea of sex as something to rise above, as it is somehow dirty and pollutes the body (and body-politik).
7. The prodigy / the boy genius
Ban Hawkins is blessed in Carnivale; Wesley Crusher is extraordinarily gifted in TNG; Octavian is terrifyingly intelligent in Rome. All of these young boys are precocious and with paths mapped out for them. They begin the show as playing pieces, moved about by the patriarch, and will often either become patriarchs or stately antagonists.
8. The stately antagonist
The stately antagonist is the counter to the patriarch - the opposing side's equivalent. That would be Magneto to our Xavier and Pompey to our Caesar. Star Trek went one step further, and created an entire race of these stately antagonists: initially the Romulans, they later became the Klingons, with the Romulans slipping to the role of dishonourable liars. In Carnivale, we also have Brother Justin - with Iris as the stately mother/sexual woman twin archetype - and in Deadwood we briefly had Wild Bill Hickok. Interestingly, Wild Bill was presented in such as a way as to make the viwer wonder if he was the patriarch, rather than the antagonist; it is only with his death and the arrival of Cy Tolliver that he becomes the stately antagonist, and Cy the petty one.
9. The petty antagonist / the trickster
Q in TNG; Dukat in DSN; Cy Tolliver in Deadwood and perhaps Cato and Cicero in Rome. The trickster is not necessarily a figure of fun, although he can be played this way. Rather, he does not have the vision or perhaps the resources to be a true counter to the statesmanship of the patriarch. The trickster would be linked to Loki, but would often be a middle-aged man, to allow for the play of comedy without lapsing into pathos. An example of a race of petty antagonists used in Star Trek would be the Ferengi.
10. The dishonourable liar/ the traitor
The Romulans and their cloaking device quickly cast them in the role of the dishonourable liar, although the Cardassians could also be used in this way (they were too vicious to be a petty antagonist, and too limited in their vision to be a stately one). I would argue that Brutus is not a traitor in the Rome mythos, as he does what he is compelled to do by the demands of his mother, and by Caesar moving against him first. Indeed, I would argue that there are no traitors in Rome, as there are plenty of antagonists and they are not needed. In Firefly, however, Jayne is a traitor, albeit a reformed one: he starts off as a hero, briefly becomes a villain, and in the end he redeems himself. However, the act of betrayal in Ariel means that is the show's traitor. In Babylon 5, we ironically have an entire race of traitors and dishonourable liars - the humans, led by Clark. He is not simply a villain, he is a deceitful villain, who gains power by stealth. He does not do this for merely his own personal gain, but for a thirst for power over a much wider area. He is thus not a petty antagonist or trickster, and certainly not a stately antagonist, but a traitor to his own race.
11. The warrior
We'd have Worf, Titus Pullo and a few others in this category. The warrior lives by the same code as the stately antagonists and the patriarch, regardless of whose side they are on. This code might be a mercernary one, such as the one Jayne follows, or a strict honourable one, like Worf's; regardless, loss of face will often be the worst blow that can be dealt to a warriror. They are, however, visibly and publicly subordinate to the patriarch, and will often be the everyman example of capable men following their rule. This will affirm the wisdom and power of the patriarch, by demonstrating their superiority over obviously powerful men such as Worf and Jayne.
If anyone comes up with any more or has comments on the ones above, please comment. I am rather interested in this whole thing.
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no subject
Date: 2006-08-13 10:45 pm (UTC)(BTW, vacation granted! WHEEE!)
no subject
Date: 2006-08-14 08:33 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-08-15 07:46 am (UTC)I find it difficult to see Sam as our eyes in "premiere" at least initially as Sorkin introduces to all of the major characters and then hits a long introductory shot which follows leo. I'm not saying leo is the narrative centre of the west wing, i just think it rotates, between and often within episodes. Witness the dual narratives in celestial navigation: Josh's speech to the students, and sam and toby's simultaneous search for mendoza
no subject
Date: 2006-08-16 11:19 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-08-17 09:22 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-08-17 09:19 pm (UTC)That said, I am stealing all your sorkin thoughts. so there.
no subject
Date: 2006-08-15 07:51 am (UTC)here by way of metafandom
Date: 2006-08-16 11:14 pm (UTC)I would say that you're leaving out the magician/miracle worker character, the practical person who gets things done. Not all ensemble casts have them, but Trek's engineers come to mind--and maybe McCoy but not the other CMOs--as does Leo in WW, in that he's the one who knows how to get things done and can often pull rabbits out of his hat. I haven't watched enough of Rome to know if there is one there, although maybe Cesar's slave, Posca would fit the bill.
It's very interesting to try to apply these to my current fandom--Lotrips--because it's ostensibly an ensemble cast. When I look at my own writing and the writing of my favorite authors, I can see how we shuffle the characters around through the various archetypes depending on how we perceive them or how they suit our plans for the fic. Then again, our canon is constructed so differently than a fictional canon and lacks clearly defined archetypes
Also I wonder if Donna might not be more WW's outsider than Sam is. Granted maybe not in the first episode, but as the series progressed, she was clearly the "every person" character who was supposed to represent the average American. In TNG, I'd tag Data as the outsider because he is literally an outsider and fulfills the outsider's role of questioning the standard way of doing things, although the trickster character often does the same thing.
Re: here by way of metafandom
Date: 2006-08-17 06:32 am (UTC)Re: here by way of metafandom
Date: 2006-08-17 09:29 pm (UTC)Re: here by way of metafandom
Date: 2006-08-17 09:29 pm (UTC)*facepalm* I knew I was forgetting something! In my defence, I excluded both TOS and Alias from consideration, which would be where my primary source of miracle workers would come from. But I do see your point. One interestng thing is the frequent conflation of the magician with the boy genius - we have Ben Hawkins and Wesley Crusher, for example. But then we'd also have the older versions floating around - it does bring to mind the Greek deus ex machina, which shows have tried to eliminate but still occasionally fall back on. Q in TNG - in both the first and last episodes, for instance - has the air of both magician, trickster and giant re-set button about him.
I haven't watched enough of Rome to know if there is one there, although maybe Cesar's slave, Posca would fit the bill.
As above, I'm thinking that once Rome gets properly underway, Octavian is going to turn into quite a miracle worker. Boy geniuses have that tendency...
It's very interesting to try to apply these to my current fandom--Lotrips--because it's ostensibly an ensemble cast.
*applies meta to meta and has brain explode*
That's more twisty than the Invisibles!
Also I wonder if Donna might not be more WW's outsider than Sam is. Granted maybe not in the first episode, but as the series progressed, she was clearly the "every person" character who was supposed to represent the average American. In TNG, I'd tag Data as the outsider because he is literally an outsider and fulfills the outsider's role of questioning the standard way of doing things, although the trickster character often does the same thing.
Both good points and ones I hadn't considered. *ponders*
no subject
Date: 2006-08-16 11:44 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-08-17 09:30 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-08-18 03:24 am (UTC)You know, there is a very simple solution to this upsetting lack of meta: start a community ourselves. I'd love to co-mod with you - I've read your stuff around fandom before, but for some strange reason, never chatted with you. Whaddaya say? I think we could
take overchange the world!no subject
Date: 2006-08-18 04:46 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-08-18 08:05 pm (UTC)Now help me pimp out this bad boy.
no subject
Date: 2006-08-19 02:23 pm (UTC)Here via metafandom
Date: 2006-08-16 11:59 pm (UTC)Re: Here via metafandom
Date: 2006-08-17 09:31 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-08-17 03:59 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-08-17 09:33 pm (UTC)*feels less guilty at the thought of all that fabulous DSN still to go*
Ah, yes, BSG - that one broke my brain. *shakes head* The top strata are easy enough to place, but...
D'you suppose that Apollo is the maiden? I mean, given that Starbuck is a mix of the dashing man and the boy genius... *has terrible, terrible genderfuck thoughts*
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Date: 2006-08-17 11:50 pm (UTC)My first thought for Apollo is that he's Not The Prodigal Son, the arcehtypal 'other one' that goes unnoticed in plain sight for half the story and then turns out to have hidden gifts. Either that, or turns into a traitor out of bitterness. The 'he could be a cylon' speculations seem to fit in with this perceived gap between his position in the line-up and his actual usage by the story. (That's what I'd think if I were halfway through a novel, but with the TV show format it could just be the writers uncertainty! If I ever raise the funding, I'm doing my thesis on serial fiction and the mid-story changes in narrative).
He had a little of the Boy Genius in the miniseries but that hasn't been re-shown. As you say, he is something of a Maiden (why am I getting the impression that he's his father's daughter more than son?). Ooh, I know a good male Maiden - Sam Tyler in 'Life On Mars'.
I want to make a spreadsheet to sort out the archetypes for every show now...
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Date: 2006-08-18 04:52 pm (UTC)Aaaah, S5! I've only seen a few episodes here and there - I ended up losing regular access to it, so I've only seen the first few. Still, the tribble episode? Top ten of episodes of all time, and not simply because of the time travel. No, there were tribbles. And Spock. And dax in a skirt. *geeks out*
My first thought for Apollo is that he's Not The Prodigal Son, the arcehtypal 'other one' that goes unnoticed in plain sight for half the story and then turns out to have hidden gifts. Either that, or turns into a traitor out of bitterness.
I do wonder what happened to the other son - the one who stood by his father, and had to watch all his devotion being ignored. What lesson does that teach us, then?
The 'he could be a cylon' speculations seem to fit in with this perceived gap between his position in the line-up and his actual usage by the story.
I didn't know there was speculation that he was a cylon! *thinks* I know that there's some thought behind Roslin being one, (God v1.1, or something) but Lee - now, that would be interesting.
As you say, he is something of a Maiden (why am I getting the impression that he's his father's daughter more than son?). Ooh, I know a good male Maiden - Sam Tyler in 'Life On Mars'.
I've only seen the pilot for LoM - any good?
I want to make a spreadsheet to sort out the archetypes for every show now...
*giggle* I think that
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Date: 2006-08-18 06:46 pm (UTC)I really should get the whole set...
LOM is excellent! It is very emotionally realistic and doesn't come out with any pat answers about what's Really Going On without ever seeming to do it out of smartiness (coughlostcough). I'd try to get hold of the original UK screenings rather than the BBCAmerica ones, as they have ten minutes chopped out of every episode. The edits are apparently very hard on the character of Gene (who is a grubby-old-mentor anti-hero type but oddly likeable with enough exposure :D)
Cylon!Lee would go against canon so far, as presumably his dad saw him grow up, but it's a fascinating possibility and they'll need a giant plot twist around season 3. No wonder he feels isolated, poor little toasterboy.
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Date: 2006-08-19 02:25 pm (UTC)aherm. back to the meta -
I'd try to get hold of the original UK screenings rather than the BBCAmerica ones, as they have ten minutes chopped out of every episode.
*giggle* well, seeing as how I'm in the UK, getting hold of the BBCAmerica versions would be far too much trouble. :) I'll have to snag the DVds when they're next on sale at my local neighbourhood HMV, methinks...
Cylon!Lee would go against canon so far, as presumably his dad saw him grow up, but it's a fascinating possibility and they'll need a giant plot twist around season 3. No wonder he feels isolated, poor little toasterboy.
Hmmm. What really confused me was that if the Cylons can make human-like versions of themselves, why can't they make them resemble existing humans? Or is that just too - wrong?
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Date: 2006-08-19 04:30 pm (UTC)*giggle* well, seeing as how I'm in the UK, getting hold of the BBCAmerica versions would be far too much trouble. :)
Great. I'm always going on about people on the net assuming everyone's American and then I go and do it. Still, it has only just started on BBCAmerica so that's my excuse!. You should be able to get the box to rent here and there, as it's only eight hours. Or BBC3 will probably show it some time before the next series starts in January.
What really confused me was that if the Cylons can make human-like versions of themselves, why can't they make them resemble existing humans?
They have to get the pattern for their cylons from *somewhere*, so I assume they can design people at a very basic level (Six is certainly built for a purpose...), so in theory they should be able to recreate people but just don't for moral reasons. On the other hand, unless they have the original captured and available, it would be hard to design an accurate copy of someone from memory.
The Changelings on DS9 seemed to be able to copy people quickly and accurately (there is a wicked plot twist in the middle of S5), but it seems easier to do it inside one's own body than build a person's DNA to go a certain direction. OTOOH, maybe there's a machine that turns rough drawings into DNA which is where they got the Cylonpeople designs from and I am overthinking this so hard they can see me from space.
So, er, to sum up, since they're not allowed to do Aliens, they'll be greatly tempted to go with the CylonCopy plot at some point, even if it's just a rogue faction. Also Ron Moore has previous in that area.
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Date: 2006-08-19 05:12 pm (UTC)Yes, I had a lot more to say, but my brain appears to have trickled out of my ears. Hmmm.
*wants DSN now liek WHOA*
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Date: 2006-09-18 12:37 am (UTC)I really want to watch more DS9 now, maybe have a Ron Moore Marathon.
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Date: 2006-08-18 06:48 pm (UTC)Heh. "Do what you like as long as you apologise after" and "No-one likes a crawler"? CLearly thr other son took his goats off to the next village where they were welcome.
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Date: 2006-08-17 07:10 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-08-17 09:34 pm (UTC)Hey, s and I are gonna be geeking out over this, if you wanna join in. *winning look* It'll be like we never graduated...
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Date: 2006-08-19 07:27 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-08-19 02:26 pm (UTC)god, I have to write my dissertation. I have to write my dissertation.
I wonder, if I broke a leg or something, would I still be required to write it? *ponders*
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Date: 2006-08-17 08:13 pm (UTC)The only thing that jumped out at me as a missed call was that I don't think that Inara is at all the Stately Mother (good phrase, btw) on Firefly -- I think Zoe absolutely is. She has that contained sexuality (the show jokes around about Gina's fantastic thighs and ass) but doesn't interact with those around her in a particularly sexual way, although she can and does in private, when she chooses. She's the logical counterweight to Mal the Patriarch, steady at his side but willing to say so when she thinks he's wrong, and in a voice he listens to in spite of himself.
I think you could also make an interestng case for River as the Maiden and Kaylee as the show's Dashing Young Man -- she has that upbeat, rakishly self-confident sexuality that is usually assigned to a male character, whereas River has that particular Whedony brand of Maidenness where she is both ass-kicking and so unbelievably fragile and/or wounded that other characters and the audience are encouraged to view her as someone who needs winning and saving, though in a desirable way and not inspiring pity (see also, Buffy, Fred).
So then you'd have: Outsider=Simon, Patriarch=Mal, Stately Mother=Zoe, Dashing Right-Hand Man=Kaylee, Maiden=River, Sexual Mother=Inara, Boy Genius=Wash (I think I'm generalizing beyond the bounds of what you've laid out, but I can see it because Wash is played as boyish as well as a technical savant in his field -- in fact I think you'd often see not much of a line between the Boy Genius and the Miracle Worker someone else suggested -- Greg on CSI, like Wash, is a natural meeting point), Liar/Warrior(at different points in the arc)=Jayne. You haven't mentioned any kind of Wise Advisor type, but I think that's common enough (in traditional and modern narratives), and in this case it's Book. Firefly's Stately Antagonist is the Alliance, personified in the movie as the Operative, and for a Petty Antagonist/Trickster you have Saffron, one of the only antagonists to recur in the short run of the series.
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Date: 2006-08-17 09:47 pm (UTC)Yes, one of the 'original' ensemble of characters athena and I are looking at are Chaucer's Canterbury travellers - it's interesting, it's like a whole section of specific storytelling that took a back-seat for a while, focusing on very individualistic pursuits. I do agree with you that the growing emphasis on communities - global, local and specific - has had a great deal to do with this. There have been other instances in this, too: several sociologists have been talking about an up-turn in young people choosing public sector or community-orientated jobs, because contributing to society is now something a lot more desirable.
The only thing that jumped out at me as a missed call was that I don't think that Inara is at all the Stately Mother (good phrase, btw) on Firefly
Thank you, and yes, that was the one I was least sure about, simply because Inara is so overtly sexual with people a lot lower than her in rank, status or years, which is to me the antithesis of the S.M.
-- I think Zoe absolutely is. She has that contained sexuality (the show jokes around about Gina's fantastic thighs and ass) but doesn't interact with those around her in a particularly sexual way, although she can and does in private, when she chooses. She's the logical counterweight to Mal the Patriarch, steady at his side but willing to say so when she thinks he's wrong, and in a voice he listens to in spite of himself.
*thinks about it; nods*
I think you could also make an interestng case for River as the Maiden and Kaylee as the show's Dashing Young Man
which has several interesting repercussions for the gender dynamics, if nothing else!
Boy Genius=Wash (I think I'm generalizing beyond the bounds of what you've laid out, but I can see it because Wash is played as boyish as well as a technical savant in his field -- in fact I think you'd often see not much of a line between the Boy Genius and the Miracle Worker someone else suggested
Oh, hey, snap, that's just what I was thinking! *g* It's interesting, because you hardly ever have a female magician/genius, and even when you do (River) they are played as more maiden than magician. Whereas you can invert the other roles, that one seems firmly set in a 'male' mould, oddly.
You haven't mentioned any kind of Wise Advisor type, but I think that's common enough (in traditional and modern narratives), and in this case it's Book.
I was wondering about Book, actually. I didn't see him as a patriarch, but the 'wise advisor' would be, to my mind, the magician - the Merlin figure. So there would be considerable overlap between the least and most powerful figures, and the youngest and the oldest figures - which is as it should be, because there are considerable overlaps between the stately mother and the maiden.
Firefly's Stately Antagonist is the Alliance, personified in the movie as the Operative, and for a Petty Antagonist/Trickster you have Saffron, one of the only antagonists to recur in the short run of the series.
And Badger! *grins* I had trouble with the Reavers, though, as they just seemed to strike at the heart of what a person is not - having defined all these characters, the true enemy, the one that does not have a face or even really a name, is the antithesis of everything human. So, for Firefly, you have the Reavers; for TNG, the Borg; for the X-Men, the Sentinels. It doesn't hold true for all of them, but maybe for enough... *ponders*