Feedback as gratitude or gift

[kangeiko]

Fandom seems to be split into two camps: those who think that offering thanks for feedback is required, and those that don't. (Okay, there's a small third batch that really haven't thought about it one way or the other, but give it time.) The ones who think it's not required often use the example of 'thank you' cards offered for gifts to iterate the ways in which thanking someone for gratitude is not usual. I think that this misses the point somewhat: offering thanks for feedback is not about whether or not it is required by courtesy, but about whether it fulfils certain social functions in the (cyber)society. As with all societies, it differs depending on where you look.

Feedback is both gratitude (the 'thanks' offering) and a gift in itself. It is part of a reciprocal gift-giving that cements social ties in the cyberculture. The visitor - the newbie - turns up, introduces his/herself, and offers fic. This is the arrival gift of the newcomer. They are, in turn, offered the reciprocal gift of feedback. This is both a form of gratitude for the original gift, and a reciprocal gift. The newcomer must thus offer thanks for the feedback to complete the exchange. I'm focusing on newbies here because it is there that the social rules governing gift-giving are most often formalised, and offence is most easily given. The newbie that turns up without a gift can be greeted politely enough, but, as a rule, they are not greeted with extended conversations, merely the polite motions of welcome. The newbie that offers fic (or photos, or icons), however, is greeted more avidly with the reciprocal gift of feedback. If they are not, this is often taken as an insult and the newcomer feels unwelcome. How many of us have encountered situations where we have joined a new community or mailing list, posted something and waited anxiously to see if someone comments? Some people I know often join new communities to post their stuff to, flooding people's flists, knowing that people are more likely to respond to newcomer posts.

(A side note - I mean here newcomers to the community, not necessarily the fandom. Different communities and mailing lists comprise distinct subsets of the (syber)culture of fandom, so the babylon5 community, for instance, is very different from the B5RS mailing list.)

If that newcomer receives feedback and then does not respond to it, some people will be forgiving - but the more socially sensitive will be offended. The newcomer must follow the strictest rules of courtesy, not those acceptable between long-standing acquaintances. They must offer thanks for the reciprocal welcoming gift of feedback. This cements the link between the newcomer and the community - the "I turned up, I posted, everyone feedbacked, and they made me feel welcome" route to social interaction.

In the 'real world', the example of thank-you cards is somewhat flawed. More appropriate is the example of hand-made gifts - not only do you say 'thank you' for receiving them, but you also offer a compliment on the gift itself, which is then cause for gratitude on the part of the gift-giver. The notable aspect of this is that hand-made gifts are more common among close friends or family members, where the gift can be conflated with the gratitude on the part of the recipient. This implies a certain artifically  created and enforced 'closeness' to online communities which perhaps explains some of the confusion: we expect a certain degree of distance and caution when we encounter people online, yet the fandom rules dictate that we behave in a familiar manner. This may be part of the reason that some people feel that feedback is merely a 'thank you' and does not require reciprocity: it gives the wrong degree of intimate familiarity, implying that the gift was crafted specifically for the recipient's pleasure, and that the compliment goes over and above social requirements, thus resulting in a need for another thank-you.

Or maybe we're just obsessed with appearing inadvertantly rude. Hmmm. Thoughts?

Comments

[thirdblindmouse.livejournal.com]

The 'real world' parallel I've always used is subway musicians. They offer the fruits of their art for free, but with the hope that if you enjoy it you'll show your appreciation by giving the money/feedback they're looking for. Only we fanfic readers never have the excuse that we can't spare any feedback, because feedback, unlike money, is not a limited resource.

[sscrewdriver.livejournal.com]

feedback, unlike money, is not a limited resource

It takes time...especially if it's well thought out. And thanks for feedbacking on my LJ. ;)

[thirdblindmouse.livejournal.com]

I can't speak for others, but if I'm too rushed to leave feedback, then I'm probably too rushed to have read the fic in the first place.

[kangeiko]

Yes, very good analogy. I like that.

[isiscolo.livejournal.com]

I like the idea of feedback as being part of the community structure of fandom, and responses to feedback as being an acknowledgement of the reader as being an important part to that community.

[loz]

I always look at it as the people reading my fiction giving me a gift - the gift of attention, and often compliments, and sometimes constructive criticism - so I say thank you because they've given me something. They didn't have to read my fiction, but they did, and they responded to it. That's something to be grateful of, in my opinion.

Feedback

[paradise-city.livejournal.com]

I really like the idea of social sensitivity as it relates to the interpretation of meaning in the feedback cycle. And to expand on that, perhaps it has to do with one's sense of community and belonging. I'd hazard a guess that those who come from more collectivistic cultures or backgrounds are more likely to see fandom as a community, complete with the rights and responsibilities of a community, and thus react with more social sensitivity, as you termed it, than those who come from a more individualistic background. Those who feel a reciprocal bonding with a community are more likely to want to grease the wheels of social interaction to keep the community functioning, while those who see fandom less as a community and more as an audience of strangers, are less likely to ascribe importance to rituals of politeness for politeness' sake.

Interesting idea--great food for thought. Thanks.

Re: Feedback

[kangeiko]

I've recently been indulging in Kate Fox's Watching the English, and as I'm a non-native born Brit myself, it's fascinating to read about my internalised rules and mores. The right amount - and the right kind - of gratitude, as well as the reciprocity of gifts. I do wonder if cybersocieties are not evolving their very own different standards of sensitivity to such social trappings.

I'd hazard a guess that those who come from more collectivistic cultures or backgrounds are more likely to see fandom as a community, complete with the rights and responsibilities of a community, and thus react with more social sensitivity, as you termed it, than those who come from a more individualistic background.

Yes. I'd argue that the social sensitivity of a particular slice of fandom, then, would be dependent on the dominant 'real world' backgrounds of the most active participants - by that I mean culture, age, gender, etc. I was researching a pop culture essay not that long ago and ended up dipping into popslash, which is a fandom completely unfamiliar to me. The rules there were very different, and the composition of participants, I'd argue, had quite a bit to do with it.

[angiepen.livejournal.com]

[Here from metafandom. [wave]]

Interesting. I hadn't really thought it out like that before, but I agree with what you're saying. There's a social give-and-take that builds bonds and makes the group feel like a community, rather than just a bunch of strangers with a shared interest. People who don't participate, who don't perform their part in the social ritual, give the impression that they're not interested in being a member of the community, which is a bit offensive. [ponder] If I may commit Extended Metaphor, it's like someone who comes to a costume party in street clothes, giving an impression like, "I'm here but I'm not one of you. I'll eat and drink and dance but I'm not going to dress up because I don't feel like it and I think you're all a little silly anyway."

Except we have the additional issue that not all the people who pretty clearly are members of the community agree on what the social norms are. Those of us who recognize and see value in the social give-and-take of >i>Story Post ==> Feedback ==> Thanks want to socialize the newcomers to our own standards of behavior, but they're not the only ones ignoring that ritual.

There's a largish group of people who always come to this particular party in their street clothes and we can't really say they're not properly members of the group because they've been here as long as we have and they do their share of bringing munchies and drinks and CDs, and they help decorate and take their turn playing DJ and some of them do a pretty good job but it's still annoying that they're "spoiling" the atmosphere by refusing to dress up. And if a newbie wanders in and the first people to greet them are members of the Non-Dressing-Up faction, then the newbie will usually be taught that no, you don't have to dress up when you come to this part, which those of us who come in costume and invest a lot of time and effort on what we wear and think it adds a lot to the atmosphere and the fun of the party get really frustrated because Damn, we've lost another one! :(

I don't know what the answer is, but I think it's pretty clear that our problem really isn't newbies. If all the old-timers agreed on what the standards of behavior are, we'd be able to socialize the newbies and most of them would go along because they want to fit in with the group. But so long as the core membership is divided this way, I think this is always going to be an issue.

Angie

[kangeiko]

If I may commit Extended Metaphor, it's like someone who comes to a costume party in street clothes, giving an impression like, "I'm here but I'm not one of you. I'll eat and drink and dance but I'm not going to dress up because I don't feel like it and I think you're all a little silly anyway."

I like that - because fandom is, in a way, a donning of a particular mock-personna. We're not really pretending to be Luke Skywalker's Wife, despite what our sigs say - it's more of a caricature of pretense than anything else. People not playing along to the established rules throws everyone.

don't know what the answer is, but I think it's pretty clear that our problem really isn't newbies. If all the old-timers agreed on what the standards of behavior are, we'd be able to socialize the newbies and most of them would go along because they want to fit in with the group.

I hear ya. I do wonder, though, if we're ever going to have a smoothing-out of social mores - much like the stereotype of the Japanese/English businessman interaction model (Japanese businessman steps forward to enter the ideal comfort distance of 9 inches; Englishman steps back to his preferred comfort distance of 18 inches; repeat as necessary), you have the weight of the 'real world' weighing down on the participants. I'd argue that in communities where the real world/cyberworld barrier 'thins' - a liminal space, if you will - the rules adhere more to the dominant background of the major participants. It is only in spaces where the disguise is complete - where there is a complete separation from the 'real world' - that a more unfirom set of community rules can evolve naturally.

[angiepen.livejournal.com]

I don't know. I've never seen a behavioral shake-out where the two competing groups were about equal in size and "legitimacy." My experience of this sort of thing happening online was during the transition from dollars-per-hour to dollars-per-month and finally to mostly-free in internet service. Each transition to a cheaper system brought a flood of newbies online, each younger than the last on the average, and courtesy and behavior really tanked. Which isn't to say that every badly behaving person online is young by any means :P but youngsters are more likely to misbehave out of ignorance and when the newbies outnumber the oldtimers by a hundred to one you simply can't socialize them the way you could when the ratio went the other way.

That's not the problem, though, and I don't know what's going to happen. I keep hoping that the desire for comments will keep most writers thanking commenters, although the desire for new stories certainly doesn't make anywhere near "most" of the readers comment in the first place so that's probably wishful thinking. [wry smile]

Angie

[karamarie-mckay.livejournal.com]

I don't feel that I'm any more entitled to feedback than readers are entitled to receive the fiction of their choice. I think that part of that stems from the fact that I don't necessarily view a story as a gift to the community. I write stories that I hope will be liked, but I don't write for an audience - I'm a selfish writer, and my perception of what fandom wants is a very, very small motivating factor in my writing.

It seems to me that when a person gives a gift, she's intentionally trying to give something the recipient wants/likes/finds useful - the focus is on the recipient. In writing, I think that many of us write what we find truthful, and hope that others will like our ideas and presentation. It's certainly true that if want to be read we'll try to write in ways that we think will work for readers, but there's a big difference between that thinking and the thinking that would go into knitting a friend a sweater.

Twice I've written fics for specific people, and in those instances I was thinking of their tastes and preferences while writing. I'd have felt very hurt if they hadn't acknowledged those stories. Those were gifts, and I do believe that the proper response to a gift is an expression of thanks. Both of them did thank me, and all was well.

On the flip side of that, I think all feedback deserves a reply, though I've missed replying to comments through forgetfullness. Feedback is a direct communication to one person, and I've always thought that a "thank you" is the right way to respond to a compliment or constructive suggestion.

That being said, I love feedback and wish I received more of it. I don't think people really understand how much of an impact even a brief comment can have on a writer, even if that comment isn't particularly original or insightful. If nothing else, comments tell us that we're being read, and often that's motivating in and of itself. Be that as it may be, though, I try not to to say "People should..." when I really mean "I wish people would..."

Kara

[kangeiko]

I do see your point about the specificity of particular gifts, but I don't think that non-specific gifts can be discounted completely. If you bring a cake to a friend's housewarming - it's always a big party in my circle of friends, and everyone partakes of much sugary goodness - it isn't meant for anyone in particular. It's meant to be shared. A bit like a 'bring your own' meal between a large group of people, where most people bring a dish. We don't mean them for anyone in particular, and we made a dish that we enjoy, but all the same it is customary to have people comment on how delicious it is, and for us to blush modestly and say 'thank you'.

I am stretching the metaphor a bit, but I want to stress what I perceive to be the individuality of the different communities - just as the rules of people's homes and group meets vary, so do community rules. They are set within a yet wider set of social guidelines. As a general guideline, I'd say that:

Feedback is a direct communication to one person, and I've always thought that a "thank you" is the right way to respond to a compliment or constructive suggestion.

- this is the way that I view feedback - as direct communication that requires a response. But are we bringing a cake for a friend's dinner party, or are we bringing it to a village fete to be admired and remarked upon, while we remain stoic and smug in the background?

This has made me hungry. I require cake.

[fandom-me.livejournal.com]

I read a lot more than I write, now. I used to write more, but it was several universes and years ago. However, as a reader - I don't expect the author to tell me thank you for thanking them or giving them feedback. If I've taken a lot of time and asked *questions*, then I'd like them answered. That's just common politeness. But if I'm just saying "Thank you for writing this- It really made my day and was wonderful." Or some variation of that-

I'm not opening dialogue- at least I'm not deliberately doing so. If they say "You're welcome" it's fine, if they want to ask me questions, also fine, but I don't think it's rude to let the "Thank you" stay at 'Thank you."

[kangeiko]

Yes - I don't feel offended if people I feedback don't reply to me. However, I do feel guilty if I don't reply to all of my feedback - indeed, I even have trouble with not answering any lj comments, even if they're simply expressions of agreement. I feel that I have to somehow give an indication that I was listening.

[sscrewdriver.livejournal.com]

Here via metafandom, thanks for an interesting post.

When I first joined the HP fandom, I was totally unaware of the rules of politeness. I read in someone's LJ 'If you comment I will (eventually) reply' and I thought, "Oh, that's how it's supposed to go. Okay, I'll do that." I was worried at the start of appearing too excited, or intimate/overfriendly, or rude or just downright wierd because I didn't yet know the 'rules'.

It helps to have a set way of doing things, because it's soooo easy to give offence online. There's no way of indicating sarcasm, for example. Although I don't take offence myself if people don't reply to my feedback, cruise my LJ without leaving a comment etc. I like the free and easy atmosphere.

I still worry occasionally if people are actually responding to me out of politeness or if they genuinely want to continue the conversation we're having. Because of the feedback/thanks courtesy! And I seem to be one of the few people who says, "must go now" after a extended conversation. Most people just fade into the ether without warning...

[kangeiko]

When I first joined the HP fandom, I was totally unaware of the rules of politeness. I read in someone's LJ 'If you comment I will (eventually) reply' and I thought, "Oh, that's how it's supposed to go. Okay, I'll do that." I was worried at the start of appearing too excited, or intimate/overfriendly, or rude or just downright wierd because I didn't yet know the 'rules'

I find that fascinating. I was first introduced to fandom via mailing lists, where the lack of feedback could be painfully felt through an empty inbox - and where writers could (and sometimes would) send threatening emails, decrying the lack of feedback and threatening to withhold chapters unless they received some praise. Moving to LJ, the whole experience seems a lot more laid-back, as the 'ties' are looser - you don't have to have everything delivered to your inbox, and you don't have to 'commit' to (i.e. join) a community to read it and participate - it's a lot more open than previous incarnations of similar set-ups.

I still worry occasionally if people are actually responding to me out of politeness or if they genuinely want to continue the conversation we're having. Because of the feedback/thanks courtesy! And I seem to be one of the few people who says, "must go now" after a extended conversation. Most people just fade into the ether without warning...

There is that. Like the obsession with making the other person go first, it's a case of making the other person stop speaking first. That way, you have fulfilled the requirements of courtesy and cannot possibly have given offence.

here via metafandom

[sakanagi.livejournal.com]

That's interesting...

Personally I've never thought that feedback was 'required', but on the other hand it is polite, and likewise with responding to feedback. I suppose it depends on the specific online community you're in. When I first started posting fanfic to some LJ communities, it was the norm there to respond to feedback. Personally I always respond to feedback on LJ, because it's so easy to do so. After all, the person leaving feedback bothered to post their comment for my benefit, right? I would feel as if I'd been unfriendly in some way if I didn't. But that's not to say that it's mandatory.

For community bonding, though, I'd agree that it's very important both to leave feedback and to respond to it. There's always the risk that if you don't do the former, some utterly brilliant writer will show up, be avidly read but think they're ignored, then find a fandom which provides feedback and write for that one instead. (Which would be a tragedy.)

Re: here via metafandom

[kangeiko]

Personally I always respond to feedback on LJ, because it's so easy to do so. After all, the person leaving feedback bothered to post their comment for my benefit, right? I would feel as if I'd been unfriendly in some way if I didn't.

Yes, exactly. The guilt reflex plays a big part.

For community bonding, though, I'd agree that it's very important both to leave feedback and to respond to it. There's always the risk that if you don't do the former, some utterly brilliant writer will show up, be avidly read but think they're ignored, then find a fandom which provides feedback and write for that one instead.

*g* I'm convinced of this too. Hell, I know that I have trouble sticking around in 'dead' fandoms - i.e. places where no one comments or seems to care - so if even I can't manage it, what about the good writers out there? No, best feedback, and often, so that no snaphus can occur...

[nakeisha.livejournal.com]

I'm in the 'you should *always* say thank you for feedback camp'.

Feedback is a gift; we say thank you for gifts (well I do); thus one says thank you for feedback. It's courteous, polite, the 'done thing', and it shows the feedback giver that you as the receiver appreciates it.

Not receiving a 'thanks for the feedback' really irritates a lot of people, and guess what? They stop leaving feedback for the person who hasn't said thank you. And I know that they begin to think twice about leaving any feedback. Why bother if the person can't be bothered to say 'thanks', is their view. I've seen it happen.

How long does it take to say 'thank you for commenting'? Seconds, and it makes people feel happy and feel valued. It's a two-way thing.

Just my twopenn'rth.

[kangeiko]

I was terribly nosy and snooped in your profile to see if you were indeed from Japan or the UK. This confirms an earlier theory I have that the participant's background permeates the real world/cyber world membrane in certain communities - and that people like myself, who have a British understanding of how to begin/conclude a conversation, will necessarity suffer culture clashes in these liminal spaces, when dealing with other cultures - especially when we are not expecting other cultures, but a strange perpetuation of our own.

So, yes, I do agree with you - but I wonder if this isn't because we've had similar social educations.

[nakeisha.livejournal.com]

Hee. Snoop away.

It's an interesting theory, not one that I agree with totally. I have lots of American friends/contacts who feel exactly the same way as I do. But I wonder how much of that is a case of 'like attracts like' as well?

And thinking about it, a few people who I know of who don't reply to comments are Brits! However, personally the people who haven't responded to my LoCs I have to admit were American.

So your theory has some validity, I think. It would be interesting to know how far it fits, very interesting indeed.

[summerborn.livejournal.com]

This is a very interesting discussion! I'm relatively new to the fandom (HP) myself, and the first few people I offered feedbacks to replied, which made me happy. So I started replying to feedback that people left for *me*. I wish everyone would, but I don't take offense when I don't hear anything back, especially if all I had to say was "I liked it."

Is it just my imagination, or are fic writers more likely to respond to feedback/comments than artists are? I feel different leaving comments on art than I do with fics, and it seems to me this difference isn't talked about much by others.

[kangeiko]

Is it just my imagination, or are fic writers more likely to respond to feedback/comments than artists are? I feel different leaving comments on art than I do with fics, and it seems to me this difference isn't talked about much by others.

That's an interesting thought - it's never occured to me before. Upon reflection, in my experience it's true - artists are less likely to respond to feedback. I do wonder if that's due to a difference in the volume of feedback, maybe? Artists are more likely to receive a larger number of pieces of feedback per piece than authors...