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kita0610 points us to righteous indignation over incestuous faggot heathens. Expect the icon-makers to be recording the vast majority of that wank for posterity in various formats.That particular wank does cramp my style a bit, though, because I've been gearing up to discuss incest!fics - or incest!rich fandoms - for a while now. (I decided that the Christmas break was JUST PERFECT for this discussion. Yes.) This will doubtless get me into hot water with many but, well, I'm not trying to be obnoxious, I just look for patterns. Everywhere. Help an obsessive-compulsive out? *bats lashes*
(Caveat: I'm specifically excluding cases where the incest is non-con.)
I have one main observation on the topic, and it is this: some fandoms seems much more inclined towards yielding specific types of incest!fic than others. (This covers fandoms where the incest is canon, as well as fandoms where it is not.)
I'd appreciate it if people would chip in with knowledge about fandoms I'm not familiar with, so that this list can be built up.
My preliminary thoughts lead me to the conclusion that m/m incest - both parental and sibling - is vastly more popular across fandoms (rather than within certain fandoms, if you see what I mean) which would indicate an appeal of the concept of m/m incest more than the characters selected in those items. In other words, the popularity of Regulus/Sirius might be down to the appeal of m/m incest as a concept, rather than any intrinsic appeal the individual characters might have (especially given that one of them only exists as a brief mention!).
This is curious, if true. An argument can be made that there are, in general more strong male than strong female characters in fandom as a whole, making m/m incest statistically more likely. It can be further argued, however, that the make-up of fandom in general needs to be taken into consideration. Fandom writers tend to be - to make an incredibly large generalisation - female. They are certainly more likely to support 'ships, including 'cest shipping.
It thus appears that female writers seem more comfortable writing m/m incest rather than m/f incest. Certainly, the m/f incest that does exist seems overwhelmingly skewed towards the sibling side, with a major focus on pseudocest - all of the excitement, with none of the taboo-breaking. What does this indicate about the place of incest within fandom as an entity?
1. Incest functions as a allegory within fandom, rather than depicting an actual relationship.
The power in an incestuous relationship tends to be overwhelmingly skewed towards the adult, which makes it difficult to portray father/daughter relationships as anything other than abuse. Similarly, the writer would have to overcome a deeply ingrained social taboo of allowing her (female) character to regard her son as anything other than a child, which many writers find difficult. As a personal example, I attempted to write Jean Grey/Cable once, and failed dismally, as I just couldn't wrap my head around it.
The power dynamic of brother/brother, however, is the epitome of equality. This can be seen most clearly in how twincest is regarded as 'natural' by certain parts of different fandoms: the two characters are visibly, as well as internally, equal. It is telling, however, that there is not an equal prevalence of sister/sister fic out there. Why do we not have Parvati and Padma? Why is there no Dawn & Buffy? [eta: see below for rebuttal.] I would argue that it is because the use of female characters in an incest fic would make the relationship uncomfortably close to what the writer herself understands. I'm of the school that believes it is difficult to write sex from a woman's perspective without revealing what you think and believe about sex, simply because we draw upon our own experiences as writers. Thus, writing f/f incest, despite the power balance of siblings, would be too close - uncomfortably so - for us as writers and as readers.
Writing m/m incest, then, adds an extra layer of security around the story: it turns it into an allegory of 'normal' relationships, by attempting to introduce characters who are signified as equals through the very fact of their brotherhood. Similarly, the power imbalance of a father/son relationship can be explored within the safety net of the allegory, without making the reader uncomfortable. I'm going to come right out and say that this is why it is nigh on impossible to write mother/daughter or father/daughter consensual incest fics: the writer would draw on their own parental relationships, and this would make it conceptually difficult for them to move the relationship within the fic in a way that makes narrative sense. Similarly, the reason for this difficulty is because the reader has an equal store of knowledge of dealing with her parents - and sometimes of being the parent - which makes it difficult to write such a convincing relationship.
2. The reason it does not depict an actual 'normal' incestuous relationship is because incestuous relationships are not normal.
It's as simple as that - but it does provide rather a large block for writers to attempt to write through. It is difficult to write a loving, consensual daughter/parent relationship because our understanding of being daughters and/or parents tells us that such a concept is a contradiction in terms. So - Jack cannot sleep with Sydney because he is Sydney's father, which therefore makes such a suggestion incomprehensible. More power to the writer who can overcome these deeply ingrained societal blocks to produce a fic that convinces me - they are better than any writer I have yet come across.
What of the brother/sister relationships, then? If the m/m incest is allegorical, what role does sibling incest play when the gender of one of the 'ship is the same as that of the reader? In a show like Veronica Mars, which is one of the few shows to have a fandom including f/m sibling incest (Lilly/Duncan), my understanding of the L/D dynamic is that the canon of the show portrays it as something not quite right. Frequently, the fic where D/L features utilises another character's POV, or a third person POV or, if that fails, Duncan's POV. I have not actually seen Lilly's POV used during any explicit D/L fic (please correct me if you know of some!). I would argue that this links in to how brother/sister relationships are portrayed in canon in certain shows e.g. ROME - as something not quite right, an aberration. Although the sex can be protrayed as consensual, the relationship is not portrayed as loving or long-lasting. Instead, we are guaranteed the downfall of 'the lustful one' - be that Lilly, Boone (in the case of pseudocest) or Iris & Justin - to restore the sanctity of the correct brother/sister relationship.
3. Pseudocest: all of the drama, none of the taboos
The idea behind pseudocest like Harry/Sirius and Boone/Shannon is to broach the same power issues that actual incest fic raises, without the preclusion of a happy ending. (All too often, however, when such things play out, the inevitable occurs.) It has the same level of disassociating of actual incest from the author's personal experience as, in this case, we are not moving the author's personal experience away from the topic of incest, but moving the topic of incest away from the author's actual experience. We are not-quite-discussing incest, if you see.
Conclusion:
So, what does this mean, then? Did the stars explode? Well... no. But this is my answer to those who argue that incest fic within fandom is an abomination and should be banned. In my opinion, incest fic serves a vital purpose, in allowing the discussion of power dynamics by the use of the short-hand of family relationships. Although one person might not understand what an author is trying to say when they argue that Fox Mulder loved Dana in a passionate, all consuming way (those things mean different things to different people, after all), if the author says that he loved her enough to give up Samantha for her, suddenly things become clear. We understand 'normal' sibling love, and can therefore use that relationship as a short-hand in our work to understand different power dynamics by making a familial relationship not quite normal.
In other words - lay off the 'cest!fic, it's all allegory, guv'nor.
***
///The types of incest, and examples of fandoms that feature them///
- [sibling] brother / brother (including the sub-set of twin!cest)
Canon:
Starcrossed (film - thanks to
thelana)Son Frere (film - thanks to
thelana)This is, in my unlearned and humble opinion, one of the most prolific forms in incest in fandom. Off the top of my head, we have:
- Supernatural - Wincest
- Harry Potter - twincest, and many permutations involving the Weasleys. Black!cest.
- LoTR - Boromir/Faramir
- Dexter - Dexter/Rudy (thanks to
lafemmedarla)- Hercules - Ares/Hercules, Iphicles/Hercules (thanks to
ruric)- X-Files - Krycek/Mulder (where Krychek is Mulder's brother - thanks to
ruric)- Smallville - Lex/Lucas (thanks to
liviapenn)- Heroes - Nathan/Peter Petrelli (thanks to
kiki_miserychic)- Troy - Hector/Paris (thanks to
loves_bitch)- Fullmetal Alchemist - Edward/Alphonse Elric, Edward/Envy, Russell/Fletcher Tringham (thanks to
loves_bitch)- X-Men - Cable/Stryfe (thanks to
loves_bitch)- BSG - Zak/Lee Adama (thanks to
inlovewithnight)- Numb3rs - Don/Charlie (thanks to
pro_f_iler)- Simon & Simon - various (thanks to
pro_f_iler)- Prison Break - Lincoln/Michael (thanks to
musesfool & delfeus)- 98 Degrees - Lachey brothers (thanks to
shirasade)- Narnia - Peter/Edward (thanks to
shirasade)- Boondock Saints - Connor/Murphy MacManus (thanks to
shirasade)- Popslash RPS - Nick/Aaron Carter (thanks to
turloughishere)- Naruto - Sasuke/Itachi (thanks to
anenko)- Ouran High School Host Club - Hikaru/Kaoru (thanks to
anenko)- Prince of Tennis - Fuji/Yuuta (thanks to
delfeus)- Lies & Kisses (thanks to
delfeus)- Oz - Ryan/Cyril (thanks to
mikou)- Gravitation - Yuki/Tatsuha (thanks to
mikou)- Digimon (thanks to
kyuuketsukirui)- Baby-Sitters Club - various (thanks to
wisdomeagle)- Arrested Development - Michael/GOB (thanks to
thelana)- [sibling] sister / sister
- Harry Potter - Parvati / Padma, Fleur/Gabrielle Delacour (thanks to
kyrafic), Bellatrix/Narcissa (thanks to selenak)- Buffy - Buffy/Dawn (thanks to
kyrafic)- RPF - Mary-Kate/Ashley Olsen (thanks to
kyrafic)- Alias - Sydney/Nadia (rare - thanks to
soundingsea)- Narnia - Susan/Lucy (thanks to
shirasade)- Ginger Snaps - Brigitte/Ginger (thanks to
anenko)- Charmed - various (thanks to
anenko)- Baby-Sitters Club - various (thanks to
wisdomeagle)- [sibling] brother / sister
This features in several fandom canons, yet isn't as popular as one might expect. The main exception would be Firefly, where River is acknowledged as not normal in her understanding of 'proper' relationships - witness her comment to Simon during a cut scene from Mrs Reynolds, asking when he'd marry her.
Canon:
- ROME
- Carnivale
- Silmarillion (thanks to
turloughishere)- Storm Constantine's Burying the Shadow (thanks to
morgan32). Details here.- Angel Sanctuary (thanks to
delfeus). Details here- Dynasty (thanks to
mikou)- Six Feet Under (thanks to
likeadeuce)- Revolutionary Girl Utena (thanks to
veleda_k)- Saiyuki (thanks to
veleda_k)- Vurt (thanks to
thelana)- Oldboy (thanks to
thelana)- Children of Dune (thanks to
candygirl_2005)- Gladiator (thanks to
carmarthen)- Nevar barr's novels (thanks to
carmarthen)- Edgar & Allen (thanks to
destineyjen).- Prison Break - T-Bag's parents (thanks to
thelana)- various CSI, House and Law & Order episodes featuring non-recurring characters - link to
thelana's entry is here.Fandom:
- Harry Potter - Ginny/Ron
- Veronica Mars - Lilly/Duncan
- Firefly - River/Simon (thanks to
kita0610)- RPF - Elijah/Hannah Wood (thanks to
kyrafic)- Supernatural - Dean/sister (genderswitch fic - thanks to
femmenerd)- Star Wars - Luke/Leia (thanks to
evilshelly)- Pretender - Miss Parker/Lyle, Miss Parker/Jarod (thanks to
kiki_miserychic)- Roswell - Isabelle/Max, Isabelle/Michael (thanks to
kiki_miserychic)- Children of Dune - Leto ||/Ghanima (thanks to
kiki_miserychic)- The Hills have Eyes - Bobby/Brenda (thanks to
loves_bitch)- X-Men - Quicksilver/Scartlett Witch (thanks to
loves_bitch)- Avatar the Last Airbender - Zuko/Azula (thanks to
loves_bitch), Sokka/Katara (thanks to anenko)- Narnia - Susan/Peter and Lucy/Edward(thanks to
kyrafic and shirasade)- Sandman - (Death/Dream & various other Endless - thanks to
musesfool)- LotR - Eowyn/Eomer (thanks to
musesfool)- Weiß Kreuz - Ran/Aya (thanks to
delfeus)- Digimon - Taichi/Hikari (thanks to
kyuuketsukirui)- Revolutionary Girl Utena - various (thanks to
veleda_k)- ASOUE - Violet/Kalus (thanks to
hiddenw)- Drake & Josh - Drake/Megan (thanks to
destineyjen)- Hannah Montana - Jackson/Miley Stewart (thanks to
destineyjen)- Invader ZIM - DIB/GAZ (thanks to
destineyjen)- [parental] mother / son
Nearly impossible to find. One canonical example is Sayuki (thanks to
daegaer). Details here. Canon:
- Nip/Tuck (Ava/Adrian Moore) (thanks to
darlas_mom)- Buffy - Spike/Anne (attempted canonical incest - thanks to
selenak)- The Winter Prince (thanks to
carmarthen)- X-Men - Madelyne Pryor/Nate Grey (thanks to
darlas_mom).- Back to the Future - Marty/his mother (thanks to
thelana)- Harry Potter - Narcissa/Draco
- Fullmetal Alchemist - Trisha/Edward Elric (thanks to
loves_bitch)- Angel - Darla/Connor (thanks to
darlas_mom)- Smallville - Genevieve/Jason Teague(thanks to
crimsonsenya- [parental] mother / daughter
- Buffy - Buffy/undead!Joyce, at the UCSL archive (thanks to
valarltd)- Xena - Gabrielle/Hope (thanks to
anenko)- [parental] father / son
The other major type.
- Veronica Mars - Echolls!cest
- Harry Potter - Weasley!cest, Malfoy!cest, Potter!cest (all very large in fandom)
- Supernatural - Win!cest (very large)
- Angel - Angel/Connor
- X-Files - Krychek/CSM (where the CSM is Krychek's father - thanks to
ruric)- Smallville - the Luthors (thanks to
liviapenn)- Hercules - Zeus/Ares (thanks to
ruric)- Fullmetal Alchemist - Edward/Hoehnheim Elric (thanks to
loves_bitch)- X-Men - Cable/Scott Summers (thanks to
loves_bitch)- BSG - Bill/Lee Adama (thanks to
inlovewithnight)- Star Wars - Luke/Vader (thanks to
valarltd)- Indiana Jones - Indy/Henry (slash is not big in this fandom - thanks to
valarltd)- Queer as Folk - Brian/Gus (thanks to
mikou)- Kung Fu: The Legend Continues - Peter/Pop (thanks to
dorothy1901)- Prison break - Lincoln/LJ (thanks to
thelana)- Back to the Future - Marty/his dad (thanks to
thelana)- [parental] father / daughter
Again, quite rare, despite the rich characterisation provided by many fandoms (e.g. Alias, Veronica Mars). Canon example offered by
morgan32 in Storm Constantine's Burying the Shadow. Details here.- Harry Potter - Arthur/Ginny
- Carnivale - Justin/Sofie (thanks to
bluerosefairy)- Avatar the Last Airbender - Azula/Ozai (thanks to
loves_bitch)- Angel - oh god, let's see if I have this right: Jasmine-possessing-Cordelia/Connor (thanks to
selenak) - canonical incest(?)- Star Wars - Leia/Vader (usually unknowing - thanks to
valarltd)- and just to prove me wrong *g* - Veronica Mars - Keith/Veronica (thanks to
wisdomeagle)Canon:
- Oldboy (thanks to
thelana)- [other] including aunt / uncle / nephews / nieces, grandparents, etc.
- X-Men - Cable/Jean (thanks to
likeadeuce)- Prison Break - Michael/LJ (uncle/nephew) (thanks to
thelana)- [pseudocest] e.g. step-siblings, father-figure/child
The 'fake' incest, where the frisson of excitement exists, but no actual incest is taking place.
Canon (& fandom):
LOST - Boone/Shannon
Fandom:
Highlander - Connor/Duncan (cousins? - thanks to
ruric and dorothy1901)Alias - Jack/Nadia, Sydney/Sloane, Irina/Sark. Sark/Sydney (thanks to
carmarthen).Harry Potter - Harry/Sirius
Angel - Spike/Angel (thanks to
kita0610) - and all the rest of the Fanged Four permutations (thanks to selenak), Dawn/Connor (thanks to darlas_mom)Dexter - Dexter/Deb (thanks to
lafemmedarla)Veronica Mars - Veronica/Duncan (thanks to
soundingsea, I can't believe I forgot this one!)Buffy - Buffy/Giles (thanks to lynne &
spuffyduds)Star Wars:The Phantom Menace - Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan (thanks to
modillian)Smallville - Clark/Lex (where Clark was raised by the Luthors - thanks to
liviapenn)Cruel Intentions and Dangerous Liaisons (step brother/step sister) (thanks to
kiki_miserychic)Clueless and The Battle of Jack & Rose (step brother/step sister) (thanks to
kiki_miserychic)Fullmetal Alchemist - Edward Elric/Roy Mustang (thanks to
loves_bitch)Profit - Profit/Bobbie (his step-mother - thanks to
executrix)DC fandom -
liviapenn lists a whole host of pairings (with background for each) here and here. caia_comica has another example here.Numb3rs - Charlie/Larry (Thanks to
pro_f_iler)Bleach - Byakuya/Rukia (thanks to
anenko)Artemis Fowl - Artemis/Butler (thanks to
kelly_holden)Baby-Sitters Club -various (thanks to
wisdomeagle)Passions - Chad/Whitney (thanks to
thelana)Heroes - Peter/Claire (brother/sister - maybe) (thanks to
sunryse00)Drake & Josh - Drake/Josh (thanks to
hiddenw)Life With Derek - Derek/Casey, Derek/Victoria (thanks to
destineyjen)Guiding Light - Jonathan Randall/Tammy Winslow, Henry Cooper Bradshaw/Eva Peralta, Joshua Lewis/Cassie Winslow, Alan/Beth Spaulding (thanks to
destineyjen) CANONAs the World Turns - Holden Snyder/Lily Walsh-Snyder (thanks to
destineyjen) CANONRugrats - Chuckie/Kimi (thanks to
destineyjen)Martin Mystery - Martin Mystery/Diana Lombard (thanks to
destineyjen) CANONKana - Little Syster (game) (thanks to
thelana)Like I said, if anyone knows their particular fandom well & can contibute to this, please comment!!
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no subject
Date: 2006-12-29 03:44 am (UTC)(oh, Spangel is pseudo-incest. And the Tams on Firefly is brother/sister, and very very popular, as well as acknowledged by the writers as purposefully subtextual).
no subject
Date: 2006-12-29 03:57 am (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2006-12-29 04:10 am (UTC)I have read multiple cases of both. :) The former were good, the latter were not.
I've always thought that incest fic was a new way to fold in ideas of transgressiveness after what would normally hit those wrongdirtybad kinks has become more integrated into the fannish mind -- smut, slash, etc. Stir in extra layers of intimacy and guilt and it's ready made for lots of interesting "so wrong it's right" scenarios. Then again I've primarily read 'cest in Firefly and Harry Potter, and from what I've seen from the outside in of Supernatural the wrongdirtybad doesn't seem to come into play much -- which honestly confuses me a bit, because it's what's *fun*. :)
Also Arrested Development has A TON of both canon and pseudo!cest.
no subject
Date: 2006-12-29 04:16 am (UTC)In the het RPF field there's Elijah Wood/Hannah Wood.
(no subject)
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From:no subject
Date: 2006-12-29 04:10 am (UTC)Over at the Dexter fandom we ended up with a quasi-canon brother/brother ship, Dexter/Rudy. Which was amusing as people seemed to be more disturbed about the fact that they're both serial killers, than the fact that they were borthers. And by "people", I mean just my cousin. And I know a couple of people do ship Dexter/Deb, which is falls into the step-siblings I giess, with Dexter being adopted by Deb's parents and all.
And there's like the three or four people that form the Connor/Darla shippers and even the Angel/Connor/Darla shipeers - we're crazy that way. And now I'm not pondering fic...
I'll be in my bunk.
no subject
Date: 2006-12-29 07:22 pm (UTC)On an entirely non-incest-y note, all this squee-age over Dexter is making me want to check this show out something chronic...
And there's like the three or four people that form the Connor/Darla shippers and even the Angel/Connor/Darla shipeers - we're crazy that way. And now I'm not pondering fic...
Interesting - is there actual fic around with this? 'cause that would be, erm, very hot indeed.
The vampire 'parental' & 'sibling' relationships might need a separate category all of their own, maybe, as there are certainly the transgressive aspects of pseudocest there, but the ties of blood are actually enforced through the act of incest, rather than being dissolved.
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Date: 2006-12-29 04:11 am (UTC).
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spoiler space
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Veronica/Duncan is pseudo-incest (but from Duncan's POV was incest for years, and from Veronica's was maybe incest for much of first season). A lot of early Veronica/Duncan and Veronica/Duncan/Lilly fic plays with this. As you posulate, a lot of it is from Duncan's POV and has him substituting Veronica for Lilly, etc.
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Date: 2006-12-29 07:25 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-12-29 04:13 am (UTC)Lynne
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Date: 2006-12-29 07:24 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-12-29 04:17 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-12-29 04:35 am (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2006-12-29 04:17 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-12-29 07:47 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-12-29 04:25 am (UTC)In Supernatural fandom there is a small cadre of people who write AU fic featuring one of the boys and a sister, or in my case, I have written them as having both been born women. While there aren't a LOT of these fics, the ones out there are relatively popular, and most often Dean/sister.
A friend of mine (who writes Dean/sister) and I were having a talk just the other day actually about the way that writing incest fic with a female character *forces* us to engage with our own normal, relatively healthy family histories and imagine what it would be like if something went terribly wrong. Obviously not literally, but both us *being* sisters is something we can't help but draw on.
You're totally right about incest in fic being a metaphor and a way to invoke the forbidden. It can also be a way to emphasize characters' separation from the rest of the world, since crossing such a huge social taboo is such a powerful symbol.
no subject
Date: 2006-12-29 07:46 pm (UTC)This is fascinating - I've added it in - I knew that
This is fascinating - I've added it in - I knew that <i.something</i> was happening with genderswitching in the Supernatural fandom, but I wasn't sure what...
<i>You're totally right about incest in fic being a metaphor and a way to invoke the forbidden. It can also be a way to emphasize characters' separation from the rest of the world, since crossing such a huge social taboo is such a powerful symbol. </i>
That's sort of my issue with it, really. I am a big fan of incest fic that actually deals with the heavy issues, and tackles some of the background behind the taboo. However, the distancing of the author from the background of the characters - or, rather, from being able to use the author's own knowledge as background for the characters - turns metaphor into shorthand; a paint-by-numbers version of what should be a masterpiece.
(This may not make any sense. I have not had enough caffeinne yet.)
(no subject)
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From:ramblings on subject
Date: 2006-12-29 04:40 am (UTC)Ironically, in dealing with Jack/Nadia, at least in the earliest stages of writing and reading them, I felt like the issues of incest were really strong because they weren't actually related but were so fundamentally tied to each other, in a familial sense, that there was no ignoring them at all. It couldn't just be "forbidden" -- both the reason why they might be drawn to each other and why they had to stay away were intrinsically wrapped up in those family bonds. So I got the WrongBad but was able to still have the WowHot, and all was good. (Later, as S4 progressed and Jack and Nadia worked together, it was possible to read them as having interaction that didn't necessarily revolve around Sloane, Sydney or Irina; the psuedoincest vibe didn't go away, at ALL, but wasn't as fundamental to looking at them as a pairing, at least for me.) I've seen some Sark/Irina that touched on some of the same issues, very head-on, though unfortunately a lot of them had Irina having sex with Sark when he was 12 or 13, which (a) I felt was OOC for Irina and (b) made me go eww.
I find it weird that Alias fandom never, ever coughed up any Jack/Sydney incestfic, because the relationship between them was so intense and fairly obviously carrying some Elektral weight. OTOH, VG and JG did an amazing job of walking that line in their performances, making the relationship between Sydney and Jack so emotionally intense and charged but never, ever crossing that line. To me it seemed fairly obvious that both Jack and Sydney had some expectations of each other/needs fulfilled by each other that more appropriately belonged to a romantic partner than a parent or chld; however, it seemed equally obvious that Sydney was a goody-two-shoes to the core and that, had the faintest concrete idea of incest ever crossed Jack's mind, he would've grabbed the nearest gun and fired it into his own brain. It's just not a line I'd see them crossing.
There are times I definitely see where incestfic writers are coming from -- I could definitely buy Luthorcest or Echollscest as backstory. That's still really not what interests me, but I see it. Other times, though, I feel like intense familial relationships in canon are being shoehorned into a sexual mold, and it sort of impoverishes the storytelling; there's a lot of possible stories about brothers/sisters/parents/children/etc. that sort of get ignored. Then again, I guess that's just fanfic's usual fixations at work.
This rambling had absolutely no point whatsoever. Just thought I'd clarify that.
Re: ramblings on subject
Date: 2006-12-29 07:43 pm (UTC)I'm going to make a huge generalisation and say that this maybe depends on 1) if the incest is canon and, if so, 2) how canon handles it. In ROME, for instance, the betrayal of the incestuous act is explicit, and in Carnivale it is a symptom of something going horribly, horribly wrong somewhere along the line. I've read some interesting treatments of incest in both of those fandoms, and they have been handled rather well, as a general rule. Those would be the fandoms where incest is treated as the ultimate taboo, and it is actually incestusous relationships that are discussed.
In fandoms where the incest is not canon, however, I agree that 'incest' can often become a shorthand for 'forbidden'. It's in those cases, basically, that I'd argue that the incestuous relationship depicted is not actually an incestuous relationship, but a shorthand for intimacy.
And a lot of times, people don't write it as unhealthy at all, which is just kind of happy la la land and probably has more to do with two hot actors who happen to play brothers/parent and child/etc. than anything else.
One thing that I still have trouble understanding are those that write parent/child chan incest, but not(Later, as S4 progressed and Jack and Nadia worked together, it was possible to read them as having interaction that didn't necessarily revolve around Sloane, Sydney or Irina; the psuedoincest vibe didn't go away, at ALL, but wasn't as fundamental to looking at them as a pairing, at least for me.)
Yes. *nods* Exactly.
I find it weird that Alias fandom never, ever coughed up any Jack/Sydney incestfic, because the relationship between them was so intense and fairly obviously carrying some Elektral weight.
Erm... *looks sheepish* When I first started watching Alias, it was a very haphazard job, and I only caught one episode out of ten, say. Anyway, I gathered enough to like Jack & Sydney, and see their chemistry, but she didn't call him 'dad' onscreen. So, erm, my first foray into the fandom had me dashing off said Jack/Sydney fic, which I tore to pieces after I started watching the show properly.
(I did go so far as to produce the set-up - a drugged Sydney, and Jack going in to extract her, and some very, very dubious baddies, and - well - suffice to say that once I found out just what their relationship was, said gun-in-mouth scenario came to pass.)
Other times, though, I feel like intense familial relationships in canon are being shoehorned into a sexual mold, and it sort of impoverishes the storytelling;
Hmmm. I want to agree AND disagree here, which leaves me in a bit of a mess. On the one hand, I agree, because I don't believe in the priveleging of sexual relationships above others as somehow more important or more intimate. On the other hand, given that this is one of the most ancient taboos of human society, yet is frequently broken in ceremonial ways - the girl taking her mother's place, the psychology of gang rape in war situations cementing 'brotherhood', etc - and so it is ground rich for exploration. However, throwing the two brothers into bed, IMO, does not count as exploration of human history, but wanting to put two characters who have chemistry together, and using the familial relationship as a shortcut to achieve this chemistry. Hey, if it's good enough for Austen (Mansfield Park pseudocest), it's good enough for me, but denying it gets us nowhere. Acknowledge it as a writing device like cliches - useful in its own way, but atrocious if badly handled - and move on.
This rambling had absolutely no point whatsoever. Just thought I'd clarify that.
Ah, but it's so much fun! *twirls you*
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Date: 2006-12-29 05:16 am (UTC)Off the top of my head the popular pairings were Ares/Hercules (half-brothers), Iphicles/Ares (a kind of twincest since the characters were played by the same actor) and Iphicles/Hercules (half-brothers again). Various other from the godly realm were used at fanficcers whims - I'm pretty sure I saw reference to Zeus/Ares (father/son), and Apollo, Hephasteus and Hades all got a look in too paired with both Ares and Hercules. The Ares/Discord relationship was canonical in the shows (although I can't remember exactly what the relationship was supposed to be).
The in canon they AU'd the verse to give us The Sovereign-verse in which just about anything could (and was) written.
Not to mention there was a canonical relationship in the show between Aphrodite/Cupid (mother/son) which I've seen been given the incest treatment.
As I said when you play with mythological characters - and Greek mythology at that - pretty much anything goes!
In X-files fandom there was also a sub-genre for either Mulder/Krycek incest (positing Alex as a long lost Mulder brother sold out to the bad guys by Mulder's father) and Krycek/CSM (with CSM being Krycek's father).
In Highlander there's always Connor/Duncan which I've always read as an uncle/nephew relationship.
So there's a few more more for your master list!
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Date: 2006-12-30 08:22 pm (UTC)Incest was all over my first fandom like a rash - but then it was Hercules: The Legendary Journeys - so the source material (Greek legend) had incest aplenty *g* and the writers sometimes played on that.
I'm almost tempted to disqualify the Hercules & Xena fandoms as cheating on the incest front, as they're using archetypes! *g* But I'll leave the parental cannibalism thing to Marina Warner...
those MacLeod guys
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Date: 2006-12-29 05:21 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-12-29 05:28 am (UTC)But the pseudoincest is still pretty popular. ;)
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Date: 2006-12-29 05:33 am (UTC)Although the sex can be protrayed as consensual, the relationship is not portrayed as loving or long-lasting. Instead, we are guaranteed the downfall of 'the lustful one' - be that Lilly, Boone (in the case of pseudocest) or Iris & Justin - to restore the sanctity of the correct brother/sister relationship.
I would agree with this statement, in the case of Lilly/Duncan and Boone/Shannon. I would not, however, agree with this in the case of Iris and Justin. What we're shown in Carnivale canon is that yes, there's something "not quite right" about Justin and Iris's relationship: i.e. the shower voyeurism, Iris's obsessive devotion, the explicitly sexual kiss and fallout. However, it is (at least in my view of the show) explicitly shown that Justin is, in fact, worse off without Iris than he is with her. In the first season arc, he is shown struggling with his demonic nature, struggling with his in-all-likelihood-reciprocal attraction to his sister, yet he never truly harms innocent people (Caroll Templeton is a sick man, and Eleanor is not actually damaged). In the second season arc, Justin goes from zero to fully demonic Usher of Destruction in a single episode, and commences with the destroying of the innocents (Tommy Dolan in "Road to Damascus" and the migrants, carnies, and Norman Balthus in "New Canaan, CA"). All this occurs as he's cutting himself off from any sort of relationship with Iris, be it sexual or brotherly. It seems that while Iris does believe she and her brother are both damned, and doesn't care about the fallout; when he is with her, Justin actually makes an effort to be exactly what Iris has always called him - "a good man".
- [parental] father / daughter
Again, quite rare, despite the rich characterisation provided by many fandoms (e.g. Alias, Veronica Mars).
Which brings me to one canonical father/daughter 'ship you forgot: Justin/Sofie. It's not one popular in fandom (cause lemme tell ya, I heart myself some Justin/Iris, but think Justin/Sofie is quite possibly one of the ickiest things ever), but since it's canon, I'm going to explore it a little. Relating back to my above J/I yammering, I think Justin's overriding character arc is going to be "which is the lesser of three evils"? Does he stay on his own, which may cause him to bring about his own self-destruction (because goodness knows Justin's not that bright of a guy, despite the pontification)? Does he repent his ways, leading him back to Iris, and a possibility of some tiny bit of redemption? Or does he continue lusting after Sofie (true, he doesn't know she's his daughter) and bring about EVERYONE'S destruction, including hers?
Why yes, I will take any opportunity to yammer about Carnivale that I can find. Also, in Veronica Mars, canon pseudocest occurs with Veronica and Duncan, who believe they're brother and sister for the majority of S1, and it's revealed that Duncan date-raped Veronica.
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Date: 2006-12-30 08:29 pm (UTC)Oh, I'm not disputing that, but IMO that makes them tragic (in the Greek sense) but no less fallen. Having not seen S2, I can only talk about my perceptions of S1 Justin&Iris, and they are thus:
Those two are damned from the get-go, and the poisoning of their sibling relationship is accomplished through the introduction of sexuality to it. While Justin is a stronger man with Iris, that does not mean that he would not have been stronger still if something had not gone wrong with their sibling relationship at an early point (and I believe that it would have to be at quite an early point, to have such a profound effect on his psyche).
Which brings me to one canonical father/daughter 'ship you forgot: Justin/Sofie.
Added it in, thank you.
Does he stay on his own, which may cause him to bring about his own self-destruction (because goodness knows Justin's not that bright of a guy, despite the pontification)? Does he repent his ways, leading him back to Iris, and a possibility of some tiny bit of redemption? Or does he continue lusting after Sofie (true, he doesn't know she's his daughter) and bring about EVERYONE'S destruction, including hers?
*hops up and down* GREEK!!! GREEK!!! HE'S LIKE A WALKING, TALKING GREEK TRAGIC HERO!
(Although I find Sofie being his daughter inexplicable, in terms of S1-Justin. Rape is rape, whichever way you paint it...)
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Date: 2006-12-29 05:52 am (UTC)There was also quite a bit of father/son incest in Smallville, with Lionel and Lex, and a bit of brothercest between Lex and his half-brother Lucas.
Also interesting-- there were several AUs where the Luthors found Clark instead of the Kents, and therefore Clark and Lex were raised as brothers-- which I think supports your theory that sometimes the appeal of incest *is* the incest itself. Otherwise why write such an AU, when you could easily write Clark/Lex without such a barrier to their relationship?
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Date: 2006-12-29 07:52 pm (UTC)Also interesting-- there were several AUs where the Luthors found Clark instead of the Kents, and therefore Clark and Lex were raised as brothers-- which I think supports your theory that sometimes the appeal of incest *is* the incest itself.
I was not even aware of that! So - creating pseudocest where none existed for the characters? *breaks brain* That's going to take more brain cells than I have left, I feel...
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Date: 2006-12-29 06:43 am (UTC)and i hate to be the *old* one...but, yes, even back in the day, we had some incest fanfic.
star wars: luke and leia.
and there was *tons* of it. and if there was a wank...it never made it into our home-printed and home-bound and mass mailed newsletters! ;)
but really...i don't think you'll find an even playing field for incest fanfic. either it's something you want to read/write or it's something you'll want to ignore and/or hate.
and that's okay, right?
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Date: 2006-12-29 07:54 pm (UTC)and there was *tons* of it. and if there was a wank...it never made it into our home-printed and home-bound and mass mailed newsletters! ;)
Thank you - I've added it in! And wouldn't that be vaguely canon, anyway - certainly we got one kiss and much crushing?
but really...i don't think you'll find an even playing field for incest fanfic. either it's something you want to read/write or it's something you'll want to ignore and/or hate.
and that's okay, right?
Hee! See, I'm gonna be difficult and say that I want to read bits of it, when it's well done - just as I want to read a fic that tackles & reworks a cliche in a fresh and interesting way. The fact that it's incest doesn't make me want to read or not read something, but mis-using the emotional & narrative impact of incest turns me off something chronic. Does that make sense, or am I rambling?
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Date: 2006-12-29 06:54 am (UTC)To put it another way- Lee is shown as feeling kind of on the outside looking in at both the Zak/Kara and Zak-Bill relationships, and the incest pairings can be a way of letting him in. And giving him more angst, because there can never be too much.
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Date: 2006-12-30 08:54 pm (UTC)Lee is also shown as thinking their father preferred Zak, so Lee/Zak can also be a way to show the brothers claiming each other over their parents, while Bill/Lee can be...making up for that?
That's a very interesting way of putting it, I hadn't even thought about it that way before!
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Date: 2006-12-29 07:00 am (UTC)(Which reminds me: Spike/Anne = mother/son (attempted) canonical incest.)
And here' something to truly warp your brain with its canonical incest implications: So Jasmine possesses Cordelia. And starts to influence her actions. General consensus both of fandom and canon hints seems to be that the amnesia was Cordy's last attempt to hold her back (subconsciously), and once "Spin the Bottle" broke that, real!Cordy faded in the background of her mind and Jasmine!dominated Cordy took over completely. Which means that when Cordelia had sex with Connor to produce Jasmine, it was actually Jasmine in charge. And Jasmine is Connor's daughter.
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Date: 2006-12-29 07:41 am (UTC)You're very right about the Fanged Four being one whacky family of sexual fun, too.
Joss loves his incest. We love Joss.
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Date: 2006-12-29 08:16 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-12-29 08:21 am (UTC)<33 U, my Dakimonster.
I am totally gonna link you to a poorly spelled, Sam/Dean, non-consensual sex, m-preg fic now, and CALL IT ART. BAD BAD ART.
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Date: 2006-12-29 01:55 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-12-30 09:00 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-12-29 02:08 pm (UTC)Smallville has buckets of incest fic for the Luthors, for father/son, mother/son and brother/brother pairings. BSG also has pseudocest, for Adama (Sr)/Kara, and you can argue that Alias has thrown up fic with Sloane/Sydney that could e considered pseudocest (the same for Jack/Nadia?). I'm not into the show (I have actually never seen it) but I know that Numb3rs has spawned brother/brother fics.
Also, the fic I'm writing now for an obscure book series is based on canon (non-incest) slash that is prophesised by the words 'father, brother, friend, lover'. I would argue that in a lot of cases of incest!fic, it's mostly due to the family members being the only people the other person understands/can turn to/is around, ala the Winchesters. They only have each other, so the incest can be seen as more natural and perhaps more expected?
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Date: 2006-12-30 08:34 pm (UTC)I have read Buffy/Dawn fic which had Buffy angsting about sleeping with her little sister, so it does exist.
D'you have a link? I'd be curious to read it (because 'angsting' isn't really how I'd describe my own reaction if I slept with my sibling. In fact, I don't think that 'horror' or 'abject misery' would cover it either).
However, it might fall into the pseudocest category, as Dawn is the Key and not her 'real' sister, even if they did make her out of Buffy
Heh! Or mother/daughter, as well as sister/sister and twincest. *brain breaks*
I would argue that in a lot of cases of incest!fic, it's mostly due to the family members being the only people the other person understands/can turn to/is around, ala the Winchesters. They only have each other, so the incest can be seen as more natural and perhaps more expected?
Oh, I'm going to have to disagree there, at least with regard to the vast majority of fandoms that I'm familiar with. With BSG and Harry Potter, for instance, there are a million and one different interesting characters all shooting sparks off of one another. It's not like they're stuck for company.
In the sace of Supernatural, I'd be more inclined to believe that if the incest!fic actually dealt with the characters' emotions, but I just don't see any evidence of that.
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From:A Couch for Luxury and Damned Incest
Date: 2006-12-29 02:58 pm (UTC)Re: A Couch for Luxury and Damned Incest
Date: 2006-12-30 08:36 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-12-29 04:24 pm (UTC)[shrug]
With this recent blowup over Wincest - two hot men who are the main characters in a show that aren't actually related to eachother in real life. Oh noes! People are reading the chemistry they see and reacting to it. [eyeroll]
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Date: 2006-12-30 03:24 am (UTC)It always amazing me that no one in the "incest eww" category comprehends that we're usually talking about actors that aren't related to one another and have chemistry despite being cast in a family role.
Far me it for me to align myself with the 'incest ewww' camp, given that I've written it a fair number of times, but I do have some issues with it - more or less the same issues with the use of rape as a narrative device, say. It's not so much the use of it to paint a relationship that bothers me, it's when it is used in a heavy-handed manner - or used as a lazy shortcut, rather than in a strong and intelligent way. While I argue above that incest is used metaphorically in many cases (and I was thinking of Supernatural & Harry Potter, mainly), one of the results that I, as a reader, am noticing is a downturn in the effort put into developing those relationships.
Put another way - I expect my fanfic to be about the characters and their relationships. I'm equally thrilled with fic about the actors as actors playing those parts. What I don't understand is the conflation of the two: wanting to keep the background of the characters, but wanting to have the uncomplicated (well, less complicated) aspects of a non-incestuous relationship. I'd look for a Wincest fic when I want something difficult, challenging and complicated - but a Jared/Jensen fic if I wanted two pretty guys together. Putting the two together is, in my opinion, a disservice to both. I'm not in the Supernatural fandom and so am not sure what this 'blow-up' is, precisely, but it is not my intention to add to it. I enjoy both forms - RPF and Wincest - however, I am pushing for clearer character development. I don't believe that this is an unreasonable desire.
(I didn't really go into this in my original post, as this is more personal preference as a reader rather than trying to understand why certain things are happening - but, well, it's 3am and I'm rambling...)
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Date: 2006-12-29 05:52 pm (UTC)i think i need an icon that says "ooo, shiny".
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Date: 2006-12-30 08:21 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-12-29 06:14 pm (UTC)As for movies, Leto II and Ghanima from Children of Dune have a fandom following and was hinted at in the movie. Also, Cruel Intentions and Dangerous Liasons has pseudocest.
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Date: 2006-12-30 08:41 pm (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2006-12-30 01:23 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-12-30 02:59 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-12-30 07:55 am (UTC)TROY: Hector/Paris (brothers)
Dexter: Rudy(Brian)/Dexter (brothers)
The Hills have Eyes: Bobby/Brenda (brother/sister, which dude if you watch that movie is practically canon because those two have way too much chemistry)
If you want to delve in to the fucked up land of Anime which I love so well there is:
Fullmetal Alchemist: Edward Elric/Alphonse Elric (Brothers/Elricest)
Russell Tringham/Fletcher Tringham (Brothers)
Edward Elric/Hoehnhiem Elirc (Father/Son)
Edward Elric/Envy (Brothers.....sort of It get confusing a bit with the Hommunculi)
Edward/Trisha Elric or Sloth (Son/Mother)
pseudocest:
Roy Mustang/Edward Elric (Almost big brother/little brother)
Avatar the Last Airbender:
Prince Zuko/Princess Azula (Brother/Sister)
Azula/Ozai (Father/Daughter)
Than there is Canon incest in the Manga Angel Sanctuary where The lead is separated from his sister because he is in love with her.
This isn't even touching on where I first read incest!fic which is in Comic Book Fic.
The X-men: Quicksilver/Scarlett Witch (Brother/sister)
Multiple Man/Multiple Man (is it even incest when your screwing your own clone??)
Cable/Scott Summers (Son/Father)
Cable/Stryfe (Brothers)
As for pseudocest I think almost everyone in the X Men family has been paired with Professor X at one time or another. And there's my favourite pairing which is Wolverine/Jubliee which is almost Big Brother/Little sister-ish
Personally the only fic I've ever read in Depth that has to Do with Incest is Hector/Paris and Sam/Dean. But man I can't say that if it doesn't interest me I won't at least try it.
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Date: 2006-12-30 08:49 pm (UTC)(no subject)
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