Alias S3 Ep 13 (After 6 hours?)

[kangeiko]

OK, so Jack didn't shoot Arvin the head (and you would have, Jack, I know you're trying to deny it - and why is that, exactly? - but you would have) and is now feeling guilty. Arvin doesn't mind. Arvin is lonely. Arvin misses Emily (which, you know, makes me want to snuggle him. *fear*). Arvin also obviously doesn't want a shrink, Jack, Arvin wants a hug from you or Sydney.

The way I see it -

Katya is playing her own game and the Sloane gambit was her pay-off, not Irina's (except that maybe they overlap).

Jack knows that she knows that he knows (that she knows?) that it's an Irina and/or Katya pay-off, which brings an extra player into the game.

Katya also knows that Sloane knows that Jack would have done it and there isn't a hate there, which leads me to think that hate or distrust wasn't what was intended. Instead, it simply clarified or crystalised their relationship, moving it from a slightly romanticised "the man jumped in front of a bullet for me, Sydney" and "you're all I have" to "You feel guilty" and "I'm alone", respectively. It's a lot more honest and more likely to be the basis of a lasting relationship (however you want take that) than a romaticised version of rekindled friendship. Really, what the hell was Jack thinking? Sloane's always been a romantic, but I figured Jack for a cynic. Anyway. So, actually, all three players get a payoff (and Irina, if she was involved, except if she wanted them driven apart) and I believe that Katya knew that this is a better basis for a renewed relationship. So -

Katya (and/or Irina) wants to drive them together. Payoff of them becoming friendlier/more honest friends = A; payoff of their friendship dissolving = B, where A is greater than B (based on the probability of each outcome).

Jack knows that he's been manipulated by Katya but cooperation may yield a greater payoff, so he's at the moment appearing to cooperate. Non-endgame scenario, his payoff from cooperation (payoff C) will be greater than non-cooperation (payoff D) or forcing an endgame (payoffs E and F, depending on who gets killed. Payoff G, where Jack ends up dead, we'll leave to one side).

Sloane...

... is lonely.

No, seriously. I could hear the numbers clicking as Katya and Jack were talking, but, man, I just about bled tears when Sloane stood in front of that window, looking incredibly lost and alone. And Jack... Jack will not allow the possibility of letting him in too close too early, because he's learned his lesson (we don't want payoff G, whereby Katya and Sloane receive payoffs of who cares, Jack'll be dead). But he won't leave Sloane like this. No, correction, he won't leave Arvin like this. It's like I can hear a yield each time he uses Sloane's given name. He's surrendering points and ground each time he says it.

And Sydney... Sydney's isn't a player or a payoff or, or, I don't know what. She's like the extant conditions, or something; the market in a price game. The last thing you want is for the market to collapse, so, actually, you may risk cooperation even though it'll cost everyone, because, well, otherwise the alternative is that the market goes away. And if that happens, that ties Irina and Jack and Sloane in knots.

Which, interestingly, gives Sloane something else to play for. Because if Sloane views Jack is both player and market and, hell, payoff, that makes things considerably more complicated.

Right, first, assume that the cow is spherical.

*goes back to the rest of the episode*

Comments

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Am I ever glad you're reviewing these episodes. (Must tell Andraste, whose first reaction to the same scene between Jack and Sloane you can find here (http://www.livejournal.com/users/andrastewhite/230218.html).)

OK, so Jack didn't shoot Arvin the head (and you would have, Jack, I know you're trying to deny it - and why is that, exactly? - but you would have) and is now feeling guilty.

I think the attempt to deny it is the closest thing to an apology Jack is capable of. And when have we seen him feel guilty for anyone other than Sydney? I so adore both the almost-assassination scene and the visit afterwards.

As for whether it was Katya or Irina or both who had the idea for this entire thing: we never find out for sure, but here's my take on it: Sloane has been looking for Nadia (his and Irina's daughter) ever since he found out the news. Which Irina is aware of, and she wants him to stop looking for various reasons, some more obvious than others. That's what the "back off, Irina" message was about.

And this is why Sloane afterwards lets out the big news to Dr. Barnett. It's one of his few miscalculations, but he's seriously ticked off at this power demonstration, thinks he can return the favour of disillusioning a relationship with Jack by doing this to her as well, and hence tells the shrink in the knowledge that sooner or later, she'l inevitably let it out. Which seriously misfires because by the time she does, Arvin Sloane is in a position where he really doesn't want to be in...

[kangeiko]

Am I ever glad you're reviewing these episodes. (Must tell Andraste, whose first reaction to the same scene between Jack and Sloane you can find here.)

Ooooh, you wicked thing, now I want to chip in with my £0.02! *willpower* I must also not finish the matrix I was sketching out for this. Because, law. *resolve*

And when have we seen him feel guilty for anyone other than Sydney?

I'm guessing Laura-related things, which would be fun to play with, actually. If she played up how hurt she was that he didn't trust her - and then the guilt kicked in and he caved - well, what does that say about guilt? I reckon that Jack is well aware of guilt being one of his buttons, and he's really worked hard to minimise it (hence coming off like a heartless amoral bastard upon first acquaintance). And I like him not knowing why he feels guilt for almost offing Sloane; his reasoning really wouldn't stand up to scrutiny.

"He didn't deserve it." - er, no. Didn't stop you later, did it?

"He trusted me." - er, no. You'd have decapitated him without a secon'd thought during the SD6 stint.

"He took a bullet for me." Hmmm.

No, really, I don't buy it. I reckon he'd be mighty confused as to why the hell he was feeling guilty and would, again, work on getting rid of that because it might compromise him and/or Sydney.

That said, I love how Sloane just assumed that he was feeling bad and was there apologise! Didn't it occur that Jack might have been sent back to finish the job? *g*

I so adore both the almost-assassination scene and the visit afterwards.

It's so unbearably sweet. I will never forgive JJ for making me want to hug Arvin Sloane.

As for whether it was Katya or Irina or both who had the idea for this entire thing: we never find out for sure, but here's my take on it: Sloane has been looking for Nadia (his and Irina's daughter) ever since he found out the news. Which Irina is aware of, and she wants him to stop looking for various reasons, some more obvious than others. That's what the "back off, Irina" message was about.

Ah, it makes more sense in context! And it's a bit, I don't know, mean, I guess (I can't believe I'm using that adjective in relation to Irina Derevko!) to go straight for Jack-as-killer. It clears up all those stupid notions before, BUT it also hammers home the point that Jack is Irina's, not Sloane's. And so is Nadia. And Sydney.

In fact, I need a grudge match between Irina and Sloane. I can't see how some people write him as abusing her or coercing her into sex; it's obvious that she holds all the cards in their association.

Which seriously misfires because by the time she does, Arvin Sloane is in a position where he really doesn't want to be in...

Yes, exactly. He'd have been kicking himself, wouldn't he? Dead by stupidity. Or, well, not stupidity, but serious miscalculation. It all amounts to the same thing.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

And I like him not knowing why he feels guilt for almost offing Sloane; his reasoning really wouldn't stand up to scrutiny.

No, it wouldn't.*g*

That said, I love how Sloane just assumed that he was feeling bad and was there apologise! Didn't it occur that Jack might have been sent back to finish the job?

Obviously not.*g* What I also find interesting is that Sloane takes no security precautions, either after Katya told him and when Jack enters (and presumably he has a gun in his desk somewhere), or during the later visit.

I will never forgive JJ for making me want to hug Arvin Sloane.

Just wait till you see what he puts him through in late season 4.*veg* You'd think that going through his own execution couldn't be topped, but no, there is something worse waiting in the wings...

BUT it also hammers home the point that Jack is Irina's, not Sloane's. And so is Nadia. And Sydney.

And now remember that "you may see yourself as a father figure and a good husband and friend, but I will never see that man in you, and never talk to me about your love for Sydney again" comment. Yup, Irina has seen the competition, and it's not Katya. Or the CIA.

In fact, I need a grudge match between Irina and Sloane. I can't see how some people write him as abusing her or coercing her into sex; it's obvious that she holds all the cards in their association.

It's absolutely ridiculous is what it is. If he had in any way blackmailed her or forced her into sex, she'd have killed him a long time ago. The woman was an experienced KGB assassin long before she became an Overlord in her own right, for Abrams' sake! My explanation for these Irina-as-Sloane's-victim stories is that people needed someone not Irina to blame for the extramarital sex, perceiving it as an obstacle to happy Jack/Irina reunion. So they let Sloane force her, let Jack find out and remorsefully open his arms to poor Irina. Never mind that this is selling Irina short and ooc for Sloane as well.

I rather like the theory in yahtzee63's newest ficlet about Irina wherein she postulates Irina had the affair as a last minute attempt to convince her superiors to leave her in the US because now she could exploit a brand new source. Didn't quite work out this way, of course.

He'd have been kicking himself, wouldn't he? Dead by stupidity. Or, well, not stupidity, but serious miscalculation. It all amounts to the same thing.

True. Which is why he reacts differently here than to all the other threats to his life before or after. It's just so infuriating and galling.

[kangeiko]

Obviously not.*g* What I also find interesting is that Sloane takes no security precautions, either after Katya told him and when Jack enters (and presumably he has a gun in his desk somewhere), or during the later visit.

Yeah, that's a point! *g* Or d'you suppose he was convinced he could talk Jack out of shooting him? *g* (Well, he manages it later!)

Just wait till you see what he puts him through in late season 4.*veg* You'd think that going through his own execution couldn't be topped, but no, there is something worse waiting in the wings...

Hey, much respect for the pseudo-execution! Gotta respect a man surviving his own death. :)

And now remember that "you may see yourself as a father figure and a good husband and friend, but I will never see that man in you, and never talk to me about your love for Sydney again" comment. Yup, Irina has seen the competition, and it's not Katya. Or the CIA.

LOL! True.

My explanation for these Irina-as-Sloane's-victim stories is that people needed someone not Irina to blame for the extramarital sex, perceiving it as an obstacle to happy Jack/Irina reunion. So they let Sloane force her, let Jack find out and remorsefully open his arms to poor Irina. Never mind that this is selling Irina short and ooc for Sloane as well.

Qu'est-ceque le fuck? How is turning Sloane into a rapist and Irina into a victim writing about Sloane and Irina? Send in the clone-detectors!

(the other bit I don't get is the obsession with the extra-marital sex. Yes, Jack obsesses over, and in their apologies I think the other two knew that he would and so actually humour him over it. I mean, all she's done and Irina apologises over that? She must have know that finding out would have an effect on him, and that then apologising for that - and only for that - would indicate a Special Kind of Luv (tm). Oooh, she's a sly fox. *admires*)

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Or d'you suppose he was convinced he could talk Jack out of shooting him? *g* (Well, he manages it later!)

True. He's always at his best if someone is threatening him at gun point.*g*

How is turning Sloane into a rapist and Irina into a victim writing about Sloane and Irina? Send in the clone-detectors!

Exactly. Irina Derevko would have made mincemeat of a man raping her, or trying to. She certainly wouldn't have let him walk around for the next decades. And Sloane is capable of many things, but nothing in four years of canon gave us an indication that rape is one of them. It's just lazy characterisation - "he's a villain, therefore he can do anything labeled "evil"". Which reminds me of B5 fanfic which uses Bester in this way, too. I started to read one story in which he kidnaps and mindrapes Delenn (then I broke it off). Why? Because he's a villain. Arggh!

(the other bit I don't get is the obsession with the extra-marital sex.

Same here. Irina tried out a virus on living subjects who happened to be her loyal sidekicks. Sloane tried out a weapon on a church full of people, leaving said people incinerated, all so he could acquire another Rambaldi artificat. Yet what do people get riled up about and find so utterly incomprehensible? That they had a fling back in the day.

Yes, Jack obsesses over, and in their apologies I think the other two knew that he would and so actually humour him over it.

My interpretation as well.

[kangeiko]

Which reminds me of B5 fanfic which uses Bester in this way, too. I started to read one story in which he kidnaps and mindrapes Delenn (then I broke it off). Why? Because he's a villain. Arggh!

I read one where he actually rapes Ivanova, and then tries to kidnap the resultant twins (which she doesn’t want, anyway). Evidently, Bester has nothing better to do than sneak on board B5 – during the time they were part of Earth, no less! – to rape and impregnate Ivanova, who evidently has never heard of an abortion to terminate an unwanted pregnancy. It was horrible, just horrible. I felt more sorry for Bester than for anyone else, to be honest.

Same here. Irina tried out a virus on living subjects who happened to be her loyal sidekicks. Sloane tried out a weapon on a church full of people, leaving said people incinerated, all so he could acquire another Rambaldi artificat. Yet what do people get riled up about and find so utterly incomprehensible? That they had a fling back in the day.

Ah, but didn’t you hear? Killing people is sexy. Being an Evil Overlady is sexy. But cheating on your mark? Now, that’s just crass. *rolls eyes*

[andraste]

Oh, nifty speculation. And to this day, we don't know quite what Irina - or Katya - was hoping for when she sent Jack to not-kill Arvin. If she'd just wanted to threaten him and make him back off, there are simpler ways, so certainly his relationship with Jack was a factor somehow.

[kangeiko]

Oh, nifty speculation. And to this day, we don't know quite what Irina - or Katya - was hoping for when she sent Jack to not-kill Arvin.

I like selenak's theory re: Nadia, I have to say, but I also like the idea of Irina scrawling "MINE" across Jack, Nadia and Sydney in one great big sweeping move. Send Jack to not-kill Sloane because of Sydney in order to make him back off re: Nadia - it's like checking all the boxes. And it forces Sloane into this corner, where he's going to have to claw through someone's relationship with Irina in order to regain any measure of personal power over them. I figure that that was the reason for Dr Barnett - an easy way to drive a wedge between Jack and Irina with yet another betrayal, and it could be done in controlled circumstances.

Except that then the circumstances get un-controlled.

[andraste]

I like selenak's theory re: Nadia, I have to say, but I also like the idea of Irina scrawling "MINE" across Jack, Nadia and Sydney in one great big sweeping move.

Oh yes. She's efficient that way.

I figure that that was the reason for Dr Barnett - an easy way to drive a wedge between Jack and Irina with yet another betrayal, and it could be done in controlled circumstances.

Except that then the circumstances get un-controlled.

The lesson here is that if you're going to use your friend's psychoanalyst to strategically leak sensitive information, you should not then get so distracted by shagging her that you take your eyes off the game and find yourself framed by the Covenant.

[kangeiko]

The lesson here is that if you're going to use your friend's psychoanalyst to strategically leak sensitive information, you should not then get so distracted by shagging her that you take your eyes off the game and find yourself framed by the Covenant.

Hee! And that's that knowledge is the gift that keeps on giving, in Alias terms!