HBP - in depth thoughts and review
17 Jul 2005 06:51 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
kangeikoPeople appear confused that I didn't like the sixth book.
Short version:
It's something that hit me as Snape revealed that he was the half-blood prince - this is a play on words that has me groaning. Whatever JK Rowling is setting up re: Harry and Snape and Dumbledore's death, I cannot be 100% sure that it's going to be twisty as a pretzel and involve deep cover!Snape, because she gave us a pun, instead of plot. That is my problem with the book.
Long version:
In my opinion, we have two concurrent plots running through The Half-Blood Prince: Plot A, where Harry tries to find who the Half-Blood Prince is, and Plot B, where Dumbledore dies and te Horcruxes come into play. Those two are, in my opinion, not related at all. I say this after a preliminary reading and reserve the right to spin fanwaked theories afterwards. But, on the surface of it - although Harry's obsession almost makes it appear otherwise - the two are unconnected. Sure, both plots involve Harry and Snape, but that's like saying that all Snarry fanfic ever is connected through those two characters. Not if you want it to add up to a coherent whole, it isn't. There is next to no cross-over, sans Snape's importance to both.
Now. Dumbledore's death hit me hard as I was completely unspoiled for it. I was half-expecting it, but I wasn't sure and had absolutely no idea that Snape would do it. Part of me was demanding that Snape reveal his true allegiance and save Dumbledore through his magic Mind-Ray (tm), but I think it was the Gryffindor part. The more realistic part had a migraine and was asleep. Anyway, when Snape did what he did, I had the immediate, horrified reaction - JK has decided to screw us over. Because, quite simply, the resolution to Plot B of "Snape is a bad guy", which is Harry's take on it, was so completely out of character for absolutely everybody that my small brain imploded and my migraine got worse (this is also the only time a book has succeeded in making my physically sick).
Many people had this reaction: Snape=evil makes no sense for Snape or Dumbledore's characterisation (especially in light of the fact that Snape is only defending himself as Harry attacks him later, and is still giving him advice), ergo Snape is deep under cover. Therefore, this is Deep and Interesting, especially wrt Draco and also because of Snape and Dumbledore's relationship. Think of the angs and the character development, and also Snape in deep cover as an evillibertine Death eater! Mmmm, plotty.
Maybe these people read books differently. Maybe they compartmentalssie the different storylines, or maybe I just got too used to Rowling's earlier books and therefore misread this one, because I, on the other hand, was still looking for coherence. I needed the Half-Blood Prince - his identity, the book, the whole damn thing - to be significant. More so than the Philosopher's Stone or Riddle's Diary (which, in retrospect=significant), more so than Sirius's escape or anything else. This is the penultimate book, and the A Plot needed to be significant.
You can imagine my horror at discovering that the Half-Blood Prince was a pun. I literally - and I am not kidding here - hit myself in the head with the book because there was no other way of my showing my horror that wouldn't spoil it for people around me. I railed and quaked silently. It made my migraine worse. Puns cause me physical pain. (![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
wingsmith, take note.) In the midst of Dumbledore's death and my swirling emotions, I needed something more than a cheap shot. Snape as the half-blood prince is fine. Snape as the halfblood son of Prince is enough to spork out my own eyeballs. When Hermione brings up the idea, Harry is horrified and amused at the play on words. It's just not done. It's petty.
And Snape going for such a stupid nickname is horribly reminiscent of Arnold 'Ace' Rimmer, picking his own 'Iron Duke' nickname and having everyone call him 'Bonehead'. Snape wants to be called 'the half-blood Prince? No wonder he ended up with 'Snivellus'. Yes, he was young, but it doesn't make it any less stupid or childish, which is why I didn't expect him to go into a hissy fit about status and power and his damn nickname (a la movie!Riddle) like a crazed megalomaniac. "You will call me Dr Evil! I didn't go to Evil Medical School to become Mister, thank you very much!"
It was ridiculous. I couldn't imagine Snape ever, ever referring to himself as the HBP (which is more than I can say for James:
"I," James said, striking a pose under the apple-tree in the gardens, "shall be known from this day on as - the Half-Blood Prince!" The sun was setting behind him as he held the heroic pose for a good minute and a half, whilst Sirius and Remus looked at him, open-mouthed. Even Peter looked taken aback.
"Er, Prongs?" Sirius finally ventured. "Have you lost your bleeding mind?").
For that matter, given the heavy-handed allegory of Death Eaters=Nazis, how well do you think that the HBP would have come off in the Slytherin common room? I'm guessing about as well as a "the mixed-race stormtrooper".
I don't want to belabour the point, but I want to stress how ridiculous I found the title initially, and, later, how stupid the whole play on words seemed to me. The clash between the drama of Dumbledore's death and the pettiness of the identity of the HBP made the ending seem completely unbalanced.
I'm not talking here about what I wanted for the characters, or where I wanted the book to go, or even my opinion of the plot. I am talking about narrative weight and the problems of giving equal weight to what is essentially a joke at Harry's expense (this guy you thought was so great? Guess what? If you remove his hood, you will see that it was in fact the greasy old potions master! And he would have gotten away with it too, if it wasn't for you pesky kids!) and a war.
You know, I had this same thought. It was going to be for an X-Men fanfic, and would involve mind-control and the inhumanity of what we do to the military, and would also be held together by a play on words, where a failsafe would malfunction as an insult "eat me!" is misinterpreted as an order. Cannibalism would ensue, and we would have Deep Thoughts on the military mind and man's inhumanity to man at the same time. Luckily, I came to my senses and realised that hanging legitimate plot around a protracted pun with a really, really stupid punchline was quite possibly the worst mistake I could make with that particular fic. It invalidates the weight of the plot. It makes the narrative seem petty in comparison. Your reader is headdesking whilst your characters are dying.
I can buy that the HBP plot (plot A) was from the second-book. It feels like the C plot of one of the earlier books, because it would have made a nice filler page here or there. It would have had about the same weight as Percy's girlfriend, or Harry finding out that Tom Riddle is actually - gasp! - Lord Voldemort. It would have shared space, perhaps, with the revelations about the Shrieking Shack in PoA, or even that James Potter saved Snape's life in PS/SS. It would have been a throw-away line or two, and would have made people gasp and be amused, and then would have been factored in to people's thoughts on the characters and it would have been fine.
Except, of course, that JK didn't set it up like that. Instead, the C-plot of an earlier, lighter book is made into the A plot of the penultimate book.
Why did I dislike the book? It wasn't because she took Snape in a direction I didn't want, or that Hr/R displeased me or that Tonks and Remus happened. I disliked the book because, as a piece of literature, I felt that it was poorly set out and felt that its narrative weight was unbalanced in the second half. During the first half, when the identity of the HBP could have tied plots A and B together, the balance seemed appropriate. However, as I became more and more convinced that this was the case, the expectations of the last few chapters built and built. There has to be something tying them together or it doesn't make sense in my head. It's disconnected. It's basically Babylon 5, season 5 - you plotted poorly, and you ended up with too few things to talk about, so the important things got as much screen/book time as the unimportant little points. It's not that I didn't like the content so much as I didn't think much of the structure. It is sloppy. And it shows.
Take the first chapter for example. It is completely unnecessary. The second chapter is vital, but the first is superfluous and simply JK's indulgence of herself. The HP world did not need a caricature of Tony Blair, and, to be honest, having spent the book expecting it to come to something, I'm mighty annoyed that she did nothing with it. It's plot-points could have been three extra lines in the third chapter. Maybe it's vital to book 7. Why, then, is it in book 6? It's sloppy. I don't like sloppy in my literature.
I'm not a great writer, and I make millions of mistakes and have much to learn about structure and pacing. But I am a qualified reader, in as much as a reader can be qualified, and I feel that my opinion is at least somewhat informed when it comes to these things. I know what doesn't work, and I know well enough to ask for an editor before committing things to a publisher or examiner. This book feels unedited and self-indulgent. That is my problem with it.
That said - and I said much in the way of negativity - there was much I liked about the book, mainly in terms of content:
1) Harry: I actually really liked the characterisation of Harry. I felt that it was in fitting with what we know of Harry, and it progressed him to a point where he is actually all grown up. There is much for him to still realise - not to take things at face value, for one thing, and I bet that the realisations about Snape's role are going to be vital in book 7 - but he grows by leaps and bounds here. I especially liked him feeling sorry for Draco, and his Ginny obsession. Also? "You don't have to call me sir, Professor." OMG, I love the Harry/Snape gift, right there. Harry's all grown up now. They are equals and they can now snark and bait each other properly. *flails*
2) Ginny: Some people have ranted that Ginny is Mary Sue-fied because she's pretty and popular. Er. What? She's sassy, self-confident, she has her family's Quidditch talent (that's, what, all except Percy and Bill on the team?), and she's pretty. Amazingly, as girls hit puberty, they sprout hips and breasts. I am not surprised that Harry started to notice Ginny. If there was a bright, sassy redhead playing Quidditch (or football) around me in high school, I'd have noticed her too. She doesn't follow Harry around. She dates people she wants to date, deals with over-protective brothers who are amazingly prudish about such things (five boys on the go? Thanks, Ron, yeah, calling your sister a slut helps her self-esteem a great deal, I'm sure - but I wasn't sure about JK stressing every so often how un-slutty Ginny was, it seemed a little forced), and hangs out with her friends. To be honest, she sounds genuinely lovely, rather than Mary Sue-fied.
3) Ron/Hermione: this had me amused, as the whole 'make the other one jealous' was so puerile and yet so them. Harry's worries about his friends getting together and breaking up - or, worse, not breaking up - were also spot-on.
4) Riddle: I liked all the insights we had into him, especially the Horcrux idea. However, I wasn't so keen on Riddle as an evil child (just because I find the idea incredibly problematic, that evil is born - or that certain are evil - rather than the idea that I subscribe to, which is that anyone has the capacity to do horrible things, you just have to give them the right motivation and conditions).
5) Draco cursed: the whole Draco subplot was lovely and I enjoyed the Snape involved with it as well. I was especially pleased with Harry cursing Draco - and the horribleness of the curse. Harry works Dark Magic and doesn't realise. Draco is sliced open horribly. And Snape - Snape is fantastic, as he tends to Draco, as he's obeyed by Harry unconditionally, as Harry lies through his teeth to protect himself (really, Harry, you're that pure a hero, hmm? Better than your father, right?), and finally Snape dishes out a fairly lenient punishment that feeds the dirty little minds of slasher like moi everywhere. Oh, yes, the whole episode was fantastic.
6) Crabbe and Goyle as girls: this just made me laugh, because, yes, that's exactly the thing to do!
All in all, I liked individual aspects of the content - a bit here, a bit there - but I have to combine this with my impressions above. That is, my view is that this book provides lots of canon, lots of character development and lots of potential for fic (especially good and plotty Harry/Snape), but I found it personally very disappointing as a coherent novel. So, having slept on it and considered things a little more I am unlikely to leave the fandom (and, indeed, may start writing for it again), I am going to have to give Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince the thumbs down vis-a-vis reviewing it as a book, rather than a collection of new facts and isolated fun scenes.
Hope that makes things a little clearer. Thoughts?
ETA: One of my theories turned out to be closer to the truth than I originally thought. Some dismissed it as coincidence, but 'tis not so. Not quite what I had speculated one year ago, but my main point about double standards still stands. Some spoilers, maybe, in the speculation.
ETA 2: have a look at this theory - food for thought.
Short version:
It's something that hit me as Snape revealed that he was the half-blood prince - this is a play on words that has me groaning. Whatever JK Rowling is setting up re: Harry and Snape and Dumbledore's death, I cannot be 100% sure that it's going to be twisty as a pretzel and involve deep cover!Snape, because she gave us a pun, instead of plot. That is my problem with the book.
Long version:
In my opinion, we have two concurrent plots running through The Half-Blood Prince: Plot A, where Harry tries to find who the Half-Blood Prince is, and Plot B, where Dumbledore dies and te Horcruxes come into play. Those two are, in my opinion, not related at all. I say this after a preliminary reading and reserve the right to spin fanwaked theories afterwards. But, on the surface of it - although Harry's obsession almost makes it appear otherwise - the two are unconnected. Sure, both plots involve Harry and Snape, but that's like saying that all Snarry fanfic ever is connected through those two characters. Not if you want it to add up to a coherent whole, it isn't. There is next to no cross-over, sans Snape's importance to both.
Now. Dumbledore's death hit me hard as I was completely unspoiled for it. I was half-expecting it, but I wasn't sure and had absolutely no idea that Snape would do it. Part of me was demanding that Snape reveal his true allegiance and save Dumbledore through his magic Mind-Ray (tm), but I think it was the Gryffindor part. The more realistic part had a migraine and was asleep. Anyway, when Snape did what he did, I had the immediate, horrified reaction - JK has decided to screw us over. Because, quite simply, the resolution to Plot B of "Snape is a bad guy", which is Harry's take on it, was so completely out of character for absolutely everybody that my small brain imploded and my migraine got worse (this is also the only time a book has succeeded in making my physically sick).
Many people had this reaction: Snape=evil makes no sense for Snape or Dumbledore's characterisation (especially in light of the fact that Snape is only defending himself as Harry attacks him later, and is still giving him advice), ergo Snape is deep under cover. Therefore, this is Deep and Interesting, especially wrt Draco and also because of Snape and Dumbledore's relationship. Think of the angs and the character development, and also Snape in deep cover as an evil
Maybe these people read books differently. Maybe they compartmentalssie the different storylines, or maybe I just got too used to Rowling's earlier books and therefore misread this one, because I, on the other hand, was still looking for coherence. I needed the Half-Blood Prince - his identity, the book, the whole damn thing - to be significant. More so than the Philosopher's Stone or Riddle's Diary (which, in retrospect=significant), more so than Sirius's escape or anything else. This is the penultimate book, and the A Plot needed to be significant.
You can imagine my horror at discovering that the Half-Blood Prince was a pun. I literally - and I am not kidding here - hit myself in the head with the book because there was no other way of my showing my horror that wouldn't spoil it for people around me. I railed and quaked silently. It made my migraine worse. Puns cause me physical pain. (
wingsmith, take note.) In the midst of Dumbledore's death and my swirling emotions, I needed something more than a cheap shot. Snape as the half-blood prince is fine. Snape as the halfblood son of Prince is enough to spork out my own eyeballs. When Hermione brings up the idea, Harry is horrified and amused at the play on words. It's just not done. It's petty.And Snape going for such a stupid nickname is horribly reminiscent of Arnold 'Ace' Rimmer, picking his own 'Iron Duke' nickname and having everyone call him 'Bonehead'. Snape wants to be called 'the half-blood Prince? No wonder he ended up with 'Snivellus'. Yes, he was young, but it doesn't make it any less stupid or childish, which is why I didn't expect him to go into a hissy fit about status and power and his damn nickname (a la movie!Riddle) like a crazed megalomaniac. "You will call me Dr Evil! I didn't go to Evil Medical School to become Mister, thank you very much!"
It was ridiculous. I couldn't imagine Snape ever, ever referring to himself as the HBP (which is more than I can say for James:
"I," James said, striking a pose under the apple-tree in the gardens, "shall be known from this day on as - the Half-Blood Prince!" The sun was setting behind him as he held the heroic pose for a good minute and a half, whilst Sirius and Remus looked at him, open-mouthed. Even Peter looked taken aback.
"Er, Prongs?" Sirius finally ventured. "Have you lost your bleeding mind?").
For that matter, given the heavy-handed allegory of Death Eaters=Nazis, how well do you think that the HBP would have come off in the Slytherin common room? I'm guessing about as well as a "the mixed-race stormtrooper".
I don't want to belabour the point, but I want to stress how ridiculous I found the title initially, and, later, how stupid the whole play on words seemed to me. The clash between the drama of Dumbledore's death and the pettiness of the identity of the HBP made the ending seem completely unbalanced.
I'm not talking here about what I wanted for the characters, or where I wanted the book to go, or even my opinion of the plot. I am talking about narrative weight and the problems of giving equal weight to what is essentially a joke at Harry's expense (this guy you thought was so great? Guess what? If you remove his hood, you will see that it was in fact the greasy old potions master! And he would have gotten away with it too, if it wasn't for you pesky kids!) and a war.
You know, I had this same thought. It was going to be for an X-Men fanfic, and would involve mind-control and the inhumanity of what we do to the military, and would also be held together by a play on words, where a failsafe would malfunction as an insult "eat me!" is misinterpreted as an order. Cannibalism would ensue, and we would have Deep Thoughts on the military mind and man's inhumanity to man at the same time. Luckily, I came to my senses and realised that hanging legitimate plot around a protracted pun with a really, really stupid punchline was quite possibly the worst mistake I could make with that particular fic. It invalidates the weight of the plot. It makes the narrative seem petty in comparison. Your reader is headdesking whilst your characters are dying.
I can buy that the HBP plot (plot A) was from the second-book. It feels like the C plot of one of the earlier books, because it would have made a nice filler page here or there. It would have had about the same weight as Percy's girlfriend, or Harry finding out that Tom Riddle is actually - gasp! - Lord Voldemort. It would have shared space, perhaps, with the revelations about the Shrieking Shack in PoA, or even that James Potter saved Snape's life in PS/SS. It would have been a throw-away line or two, and would have made people gasp and be amused, and then would have been factored in to people's thoughts on the characters and it would have been fine.
Except, of course, that JK didn't set it up like that. Instead, the C-plot of an earlier, lighter book is made into the A plot of the penultimate book.
Why did I dislike the book? It wasn't because she took Snape in a direction I didn't want, or that Hr/R displeased me or that Tonks and Remus happened. I disliked the book because, as a piece of literature, I felt that it was poorly set out and felt that its narrative weight was unbalanced in the second half. During the first half, when the identity of the HBP could have tied plots A and B together, the balance seemed appropriate. However, as I became more and more convinced that this was the case, the expectations of the last few chapters built and built. There has to be something tying them together or it doesn't make sense in my head. It's disconnected. It's basically Babylon 5, season 5 - you plotted poorly, and you ended up with too few things to talk about, so the important things got as much screen/book time as the unimportant little points. It's not that I didn't like the content so much as I didn't think much of the structure. It is sloppy. And it shows.
Take the first chapter for example. It is completely unnecessary. The second chapter is vital, but the first is superfluous and simply JK's indulgence of herself. The HP world did not need a caricature of Tony Blair, and, to be honest, having spent the book expecting it to come to something, I'm mighty annoyed that she did nothing with it. It's plot-points could have been three extra lines in the third chapter. Maybe it's vital to book 7. Why, then, is it in book 6? It's sloppy. I don't like sloppy in my literature.
I'm not a great writer, and I make millions of mistakes and have much to learn about structure and pacing. But I am a qualified reader, in as much as a reader can be qualified, and I feel that my opinion is at least somewhat informed when it comes to these things. I know what doesn't work, and I know well enough to ask for an editor before committing things to a publisher or examiner. This book feels unedited and self-indulgent. That is my problem with it.
That said - and I said much in the way of negativity - there was much I liked about the book, mainly in terms of content:
1) Harry: I actually really liked the characterisation of Harry. I felt that it was in fitting with what we know of Harry, and it progressed him to a point where he is actually all grown up. There is much for him to still realise - not to take things at face value, for one thing, and I bet that the realisations about Snape's role are going to be vital in book 7 - but he grows by leaps and bounds here. I especially liked him feeling sorry for Draco, and his Ginny obsession. Also? "You don't have to call me sir, Professor." OMG, I love the Harry/Snape gift, right there. Harry's all grown up now. They are equals and they can now snark and bait each other properly. *flails*
2) Ginny: Some people have ranted that Ginny is Mary Sue-fied because she's pretty and popular. Er. What? She's sassy, self-confident, she has her family's Quidditch talent (that's, what, all except Percy and Bill on the team?), and she's pretty. Amazingly, as girls hit puberty, they sprout hips and breasts. I am not surprised that Harry started to notice Ginny. If there was a bright, sassy redhead playing Quidditch (or football) around me in high school, I'd have noticed her too. She doesn't follow Harry around. She dates people she wants to date, deals with over-protective brothers who are amazingly prudish about such things (five boys on the go? Thanks, Ron, yeah, calling your sister a slut helps her self-esteem a great deal, I'm sure - but I wasn't sure about JK stressing every so often how un-slutty Ginny was, it seemed a little forced), and hangs out with her friends. To be honest, she sounds genuinely lovely, rather than Mary Sue-fied.
3) Ron/Hermione: this had me amused, as the whole 'make the other one jealous' was so puerile and yet so them. Harry's worries about his friends getting together and breaking up - or, worse, not breaking up - were also spot-on.
4) Riddle: I liked all the insights we had into him, especially the Horcrux idea. However, I wasn't so keen on Riddle as an evil child (just because I find the idea incredibly problematic, that evil is born - or that certain are evil - rather than the idea that I subscribe to, which is that anyone has the capacity to do horrible things, you just have to give them the right motivation and conditions).
5) Draco cursed: the whole Draco subplot was lovely and I enjoyed the Snape involved with it as well. I was especially pleased with Harry cursing Draco - and the horribleness of the curse. Harry works Dark Magic and doesn't realise. Draco is sliced open horribly. And Snape - Snape is fantastic, as he tends to Draco, as he's obeyed by Harry unconditionally, as Harry lies through his teeth to protect himself (really, Harry, you're that pure a hero, hmm? Better than your father, right?), and finally Snape dishes out a fairly lenient punishment that feeds the dirty little minds of slasher like moi everywhere. Oh, yes, the whole episode was fantastic.
6) Crabbe and Goyle as girls: this just made me laugh, because, yes, that's exactly the thing to do!
All in all, I liked individual aspects of the content - a bit here, a bit there - but I have to combine this with my impressions above. That is, my view is that this book provides lots of canon, lots of character development and lots of potential for fic (especially good and plotty Harry/Snape), but I found it personally very disappointing as a coherent novel. So, having slept on it and considered things a little more I am unlikely to leave the fandom (and, indeed, may start writing for it again), I am going to have to give Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince the thumbs down vis-a-vis reviewing it as a book, rather than a collection of new facts and isolated fun scenes.
Hope that makes things a little clearer. Thoughts?
ETA: One of my theories turned out to be closer to the truth than I originally thought. Some dismissed it as coincidence, but 'tis not so. Not quite what I had speculated one year ago, but my main point about double standards still stands. Some spoilers, maybe, in the speculation.
ETA 2: have a look at this theory - food for thought.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2005-07-17 08:05 pm (UTC)Snape is not evil. Dumbledore trusted him to save Draco from becoming a murderer, which is why he agreed to the Unbreakable Vow. He also stops Harry from completing his curses, which prevents him from becoming a murderer.
I love Ginny. So much.
I need more Neville. And more Luna. He was undrused, and she is so funny and perfect.
Not too sure about Harry buggering off to complete Dumbledore's work. Fair enough, but it's a little ... odd. And I didn't really like Dumbledore's speech about why it has to be Harry. I agree with it, but I don't need it spelt out for me. Oh, well, maybe it was one for the younger readers.
I'm so looking forward to more Snape. I am nearly moved to write Snape, but am only stopped by the knowledge that I would do it terribly badly and wouldn't do th character justice at all.
Strangley, I liked this better than OotP. I don't know why. Maybe it's that the adult and child characters seem to be intergrating better now that the kids are growing up, and so I can relate to it more. But I am now soooooo looking forward to the last book, more than I was for this one. I am mostly looking forward to Snape being vindicated, dying anyway, and Harry being filled with remorse. Honestly, he can be such a self-righteous prig sometimes. Totally tunnel visioned - he needs to trust is betters a little more. And this is coming from someone who loathes authority.
Loved loved loved your short James bit, btw. Totally in keeping.
Hee hee!
no subject
Date: 2005-07-17 08:28 pm (UTC)totally with you on the 'dies alone and harry is sorry' bit. i need harry to be slapped in the face with all of his judgemental self-righteous attitude. i reckon that draco survives and that he and harry resolve to become friends (or whatever) and that snape dies either saving harry or draco or helping kill voldemort - and then harry realises that he was good all along etc etc.
harry as the last horcrux theory - nice. but that means dead!harry, and i'd rather than he stuck around to see what all his small-minded actions have done. better than his father? yeah, right.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-18 09:15 am (UTC)PS Shut up, Harry.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-19 09:33 am (UTC)*snuggles Snape*
*smacks Harry upside the head*
no subject
Date: 2005-07-18 01:30 am (UTC)Loved Snape. even the nasty bits. Sorry, just did.
Loved Draco, and loved the way he really seems to have some nice interaction with Pansy and the rest of the hOuse.
Harry is really growing up- and really seems to be able to make real moral decisions.
Book was disjointed, but that is par the course.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-18 09:06 am (UTC)Ditto.
Loved Snape. even the nasty bits. Sorry, just did.
I loved Snape too. *g* Just not his obvious possession by the ghost of melodramatic!teen!movie!Riddle during parts of the fight scene.
Harry is really growing up- and really seems to be able to make real moral decisions.
I like this too. He makes his own decisions. It also means that he’s the one that’s going to have to face the consequences of them later, but it’s nice.
Book was disjointed, but that is par the course.
I’m going to have to side with the Independent on Sunday on this one: ‘wordy, flabby and not very well edited.’ I’m going to go with ‘StephenKing-itis' as a reason for this: no one would have dared tell her to change things around and take out whole chapters and get to the point.
Don’t get me wrong. There was much I loved about it. But as a literary endeavour – and compared to her other books – it is not up to standard.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-18 04:19 am (UTC)Well, while I'm not entirely sure about it, I think it was a way of filling us in without doing the normal "Harry sat alone, bla bla bla". And it was also a way of showing just what Voldemort was doing and how both the magical and non-magical worlds were affected by it.
It was ridiculous. I couldn't imagine Snape ever, ever referring to himself as the HBP
Did he though? I mean, outside of the book? I think partly it was a way of distancing himself from his father, a man who, if OotP is any guide, was violent and hardly a good influence in his life. And also, it sort of heightened the similarity between he and Voldemort. Both picking ridiculous names; both trying to eliminate their fathers from their identities.
I admit that I am a little confused by it's positioning, but I also assume it *will* play a part later. Just like I think that there is something else going on with Snape. I don't think she'd have played her hand that early, and I think it's fairly significant that Snape didn't really fight Harry. I don't think for a second it was cowardice, which means it must be something else.
Here because I followed a link from
part 1
Date: 2005-07-18 08:59 am (UTC)It’s a case of self-indulgence, in my opinion. I mean, all we learned from the exchange was that the Prime Minister was finally told about the trouble, that Fudge was fired, who his successor is, and that Sirius was cleared. Seeing as how we had endless newspaper extracts (was it four?) in chapter three that said much the same thing, what was the point of the first chapter, other than to demonstrate exactly how self-absorbed and bigoted most wizards are? Oh, and to allow Rowling to poke fun at Blair which I would salute on general principles except for the fact that she devoted an entire chapter to it. Shameless self-indulgence, IMO.
Did he though? I mean, outside of the book?
Yes, when he was defending himself from Harry’s attack after fleeing with Draco. I mean, coming up with silly poncy titles is all fine, as long as he does it in his own head and doesn’t actually think about it. It lowers my estimation of him as a teen, admittedly, but I was a teenager not that long ago and remember the desperate need to be thought well of. Howere, when Harry tries to use the Sectusempra spell on him as they duel, he starts screaming about how Harry has such a cheek, using his own spells against him – as if he wasn’t the great and renowned Half-Blood Prince, all shall tremble and despair, moohoohaahaa, or words to that effect. *facepalm* It was cringe-worthy.
I think partly it was a way of distancing himself from his father, a man who, if OotP is any guide, was violent and hardly a good influence in his life. And also, it sort of heightened the similarity between he and Voldemort. Both picking ridiculous names; both trying to eliminate their fathers from their identities.
I totally get that. But I’m sticking with my Red Dwarf reference in this instance, and Rowling should have realized what she was doing, as she must have seen Red Dwarf. The moment Snape started spewing forth all that HBP drivel during the duel, I lost any sense of drama from Dumbledore’s death because it became a farce in my eyes. It’s Bonehead, demanding to be called Iron Duke (or, rather, Snivellus, demanding to be called the Half-Blood Prince). That Voldemort changed his name I can understand because
1) he was about to do a great many illegal things
2) he had always hated his father’s name and all things attached to him
3) marvolo is a pretty stupid name, really.
The parallel goes deeper, as both name changes are plays on words; Riddle’s is an anagram, and Snape’s is a pun. However (and it’s a big however), an anagram is a time-honoured tradition in codes and secret societies, whereas a pun is the lowest form of humour. The whole Eileen Prince thing made me smack my own forehead, because Hermione hits the nail on the head – it could be a cheap play on words – if the HBP is really that puerile with his humour. Harry insists that he isn’t, which I find interesting, and which makes me question the point of the whole fight scene with Snape later. From the book, Harry discerns an intelligent, interesting young man, who is not only obviously good at what he does, but who has the intellectual acumen and self-confidence to modify existing potions and spells and do his own research – at age sixteen. I don’t know about you, but I would have killed to have that kind of self-control and intellectual self-confidence at age sixteen. Harry – quite rightly, in my opinion – argues with Hermione, as the HBP doesn’t sound like the kind of person to pun. (I mean, honestly. Outside of this one example, can you imagine Snape punning?
"Yes, it is a fowl business to have a spell go so wrong, professor."
The gigantic bird – with distinctive markings around the eyes where James Potter’s glasses had been - glared at him.
"Severus." Professor McGonagall wore the look of the perpetually amused. "Please turn him back and report to Professor Trelawney for an exorcism."
cont.d in part 2
Re: part 1
Date: 2005-07-18 01:19 pm (UTC)I do agree that, now that the first excitement of finishing the book is done and I actually think about it, I find it hard to see what purpose it served. I'd forgotten about the later newspaper stories, so all we really learn is that Sirius has been cleared. In that light, it seems unnecessary,and I think the second chapter would have been a more powerful opening. Still, I guess we know how badly the muggles are being affected, which we might not have known otherwise. Maybe.
when Harry tries to use the Sectusempra spell on him as they duel, he starts screaming about
how Harry has such a cheek, using his own spells against him
See, by that point I think he's as close to the edge as any man can be. I think killing Dumbledore did unhinge him slightly, and I think the lines between James and Harry got even more blurred than usual. He's not pissed just because *Harry* used the spell, but because James used it before him - used it and probably got all the credit for being cool enough to know it.
I mean, the second Harry calls him a coward, it's the same thing. He's just so full of rage, because of what he's done and what he's been made to do, that the idea of being called a coward by the boy who's father bullied him, and who's been protected and protected and, as he sees it, pampered by everyone, just presses his buttons hugely.
as if he wasn’t the great and renowned Half-Blood Prince, all shall tremble and despair,
moohoohaahaa
And yet, despite everything I've just written, when you put it like that, it *is* rather amusing.
However (and it’s a big however), an anagram
is a time-honoured tradition in codes and secret societies, whereas a pun is the lowest form of humour.
Arguably maybe that's indicative of the similarities being purely superficial. On the surface Snape has the rhetoric down,and he's alone, and he has no friends, and so on and so on. And yet,assuming he has changed sides - which I think we can - it's clear that he doesn't really believe the rhetoric, that he is capable of making sacrifices for others, and that he's petty and snarky and a pain in the ass, rather than a psycho. And thus his title is kind of stupid, while Voldemort's is - still stupid, imo - but more dignified.
Re: part 1
Date: 2005-07-19 09:40 am (UTC)There must be something in the seventh book.
I don't know, I feel out somewhat out of sorts. I mean - I was expecting a complete book, you know? yeah, sure, lots of loose ends, probably a cliffhanger, but something that comes together as one entity all by itself. This - at least to me - has too much stuff that makes you go 'huh?' until the seventh book. Which is fine for a series, but annoying for something supposed to be one complete novel. *pout* It could also be that I'm hormonal. But anyway.
He's not pissed just because *Harry* used the spell, but because James used it before him - used it and probably got all the credit for being cool enough to know it.
*puzzled look* James used the Sectusempra spell before? I don't remember that. I know he used the turn-you-upside-down spell, but not the cutting-you-open one...
And yet, despite everything I've just written, when you put it like that, it *is* rather amusing.
Hee!
No, see, I totally get you, and I agree about character motivation etc. However, my problem is that I didn't get that at first reading - and neither did a great many people. And if a sizeable portion of the reading public us having trouble extracting natural character development from a book that, really, shouldn’t be that complicated, then I’d sit down and wonder if the information was presented correctly. It’s one thing to present an ambiguous event and let you wonder; it’s another to present something muddled. I think that the presentation was muddled/uneven/whatever you want to call it. Actually, I’m more inclined to blame the editor rather than anyone else, as it’s their job to sit Jo down and say, "well, some might think that this makes Snape look completely ridiculous. Did you intend for him to look completely ridiculous? Also, he sounds like Voldemort on crack. You may want to work on that."
Re: part 1
Date: 2005-07-19 12:40 pm (UTC)but something that comes together as one entity all by itself.
Well, I do think this holds together much better than OotP did, because by the end of that, I really was bemused.
This time I have questions, but I think, or I hope, that they're the questions I'm meant to have, and that there will be answers. Although, when I reread, I might well find that there are a whole lot of things that make me go *what*?
James used the Sectusempra spell before?
*smacks self*
No, no, he didn't. I'm an idiot who should read before replying.
He uses the Sectusempra thing, and Snape looks pissed, but he just deflects it. But then:
Mustering all his powers of concentration, Harry thought, Levi—
'No, Potter!' screamed Snape. There was a loud BANG and Harry was soaring backwards, hitting the ground hard again, and this time his wand flew out of his hand. ... Snape closed in and looked down on him where he lay, wandless and defenceless as Dumbledore had been. Snape's pale face, illuminated by the flaming cabin, was suffused with hatred just as it had been before he had cursed Dumbledore.
'You dare use my own spells against me, Potter? It was I who invented them! I the Half-Blood Prince! And you'd turn my inventions on me, like your filthy father, would you? I don't think so ...
Dear God. "It was I who invented them?"
But still, it's the use of the levicorpus, or whatever it is, and the connection with James, that makes him crazy.
And, when you actually read that, he *is* completely crazy. I mean, either he is actually that freaked out about Dumbledore, or he is just batshit insane.
However, my problem is that I didn't get that at first reading - and neither did
a great many people.
See, because I am just that self-centred, I assume that all things must lead back to james and Sirius, because that's what pleases *me*, and so for me it seemed the most natural thing that it was James bringing out the lunatic inside him. And, because my LJ reading isn't generally Snape centric, I think I've missed some of the dissatisfaction. I'd absolutely agree though that if a lot of people aren't getting it, then there's probably something wrong.
Also, he sounds like Voldemort on crack. You may want to work on that."
Ah, but are we sure he *isn't* Voldemort on crack? I mean, really, can we be sure of anything?
Next book: Harry Potter and the programme of rehab, in which Voldemort is to be found admitting that, yes, he is Lord Voldemort, and, yes, he does have a problem.
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Date: 2005-07-18 09:00 am (UTC)I totally agree with you there. I can’t wait to see the fic that results from this. My betting is that Snape is deep under cover (because Rowling is otherwise concussed and must be taken to hospital immediately), and that he will come out, as it were, two thirds of the way through book 7. He’ll fight openly alongside Harry for a few chapters, will then die a heroic death protecting Harry (or Draco) and/or helping kill Voldemort, and will be very much redeemed. And Harry will be incredibly sorry and/or dead.
Here because I followed a link from musesfool's LJ, btw.
*waves* Hi! Er... *tidies* It’s all neat and tidy and pretty all the time, I promise...
Re: part 2
Date: 2005-07-18 01:31 pm (UTC)I think, title aside, that the whole thing is about showing us, although later it will be to show Harry, just how good Snape is, and how much he could have learned from him. It's better than the Occlumency lessons for that because, this time, Harry does learn something. He defends the HBP against anyone and everyone, and if that isn't foreshadowing of what's going to come, then I'll, um, do something to indicate great shock and surprise.
Plus, I think that's another reason Snape so badly wants to tell him then. "You think you're the smart one here? Well, fuck you, because you have no idea what's going on. I'm killing people to keep you alive, and I've kept you alive since you got here, and I *still* keep you alive, even when you don't know it's me. And if I have to shout my stupid-assed teenage nickname at you to make you see that, then by God I will, and I'll say it like I'm proud of it, because, secretly, I really do still have dilusions of grandeur." And then we're right back at the foreshadowing, because right then the present Snape is helping him when he doesn't know it, just like the help he got throughout the year was Snape's and he didn't know it.
My betting is that Snape is deep under cover (because Rowling is otherwise
concussed and must be taken to hospital immediately), and that he will come out, as it were, two thirds of the way through book 7.
Absolutely - complete with wailing and cries of "O, sir, how stupid I was!" It'll be fun.
And, for the record, this is the most proSnape comment I've ever made. I feel it's some kind of momentous ocasion. *G*
It’s all neat and tidy and pretty all the time
Really? Because neat and tidy all the time scares me slightly. *G*
Re: part 2
Date: 2005-07-18 02:23 pm (UTC)I really really want him to say that exact speech in book 7. I like the fact that one of the morals of the story seems to be trust your olders and betters, cos they know more and don't often tell people that they know more. The other morale should be shut up, Harry.
I never thought I would be defending Snape this vehemently, but I like the fact that JK made Harry so tunnel-visioned. It fits, it's appropriate and it creates sympathy for Snape and Draco while still making Harry passionate and moral (he's only got the wrong end of the stuck after all). Although I did find it interesting that he was willing to kill to get revenge or whatever, and it was a seemingly im-moral character that prevents him. I thought that last scene between Snape and Harry rocked, imho.
Although why the hell did Dumbledore not tell anyone else of thiss plan? Is it solely so that Harry can defend Snape against everyone else at the end of book 7, so it's only Harry that is right yet again? Oh well.
Re: part 2
Date: 2005-07-18 02:31 pm (UTC)Snape has the right to say, "I've been on this side all along!" But he doesn't have the right to say, "Why didn't you trust me?" He's primarily the martyr of his own behavior, more than anyone else's.
And I believe Harry will be the first of Snape's defenders in Book 7, much to Harry's own surprise.
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Date: 2005-07-18 04:02 pm (UTC)Yeah, it does seem like it's been held a little close. I guess the more people who know the less chance of keeping the secret there is. And that's very much in keeping with the Dumbledore of OotP, who kept more than was good for him hidden. Not completely changed, then.
so it's only Harry that is right yet again?
Well, I suppose it depends *how* Harry finds out. I mean, someone else might discover the truth, and Harry might refuse to believe it until it's too late. It certainly wouldn't be the first time he'd done something like that.
I never thought I would be defending Snape this vehemently
No, neither did I. I still don't much like him as a person, but as a character I think he's excelled himself. And if he really didn't want to kill Dumbledore, then I do feel sorry for him.
Re: part 2
Date: 2005-07-19 09:46 am (UTC)Which is really making the Harry/Snape ‘shipper in me squee. I mean, it’s taken me a good few days to work through all the content in my head, due to my problems with the presentation of it, but I am generally quite pleased at where this leaves our intrepid pair. (Am also squeeing over mature!Harry fic. I have been quite disturbed at the gradual move towards chan in the fandom, which squicks me, and thus meant that I couldn’t read most of the Harry/Snape fic out there. BUT! Mature!Harry! *happy dance*)
It's better than the Occlumency lessons for that because, this time, Harry does learn something. He defends the HBP against anyone and everyone, and if that isn't foreshadowing of what's going to come, then I'll, um, do something to indicate great shock and surprise.
hee!
"You think you're the smart one here? Well, fuck you, because you have no idea what's going on. I'm killing people to keep you alive, and I've kept you alive since you got here, and I *still* keep you alive, even when you don't know it's me. And if I have to shout my stupid-assed teenage nickname at you to make you see that, then by God I will, and I'll say it like I'm proud of it, because, secretly, I really do still have dilusions of grandeur."
D'you suppose – hypothetically speaking, mind you – that if I were to beg you and offer you sexual favours you would write this fic? *bats lashes* 'Cause, mmmmmm. I have a serious need for Snape to smack Harry upside the head. Actually, I have a serious need for anyone to smack Harry upside the head. It would make the disciplinarian in me very happy.
Absolutely - complete with wailing and cries of "O, sir, how stupid I was!" It'll be fun.
*bounce bounce bounce*
I can also offer you virtual chocolate and, er, *counts* fifteen beans.
*poke*
And, for the record, this is the most proSnape comment I've ever made. I feel it's some kind of momentous ocasion. *G*
*giggle* You shall be brought over to the dark side of the fic! :-)
Really? Because neat and tidy all the time scares me slightly. *G*
*g*
Re: part 2
Date: 2005-07-19 12:54 pm (UTC)Yeah, I think they look more likely here to forge some kind of understanding than they ever have. Not only do they have more in common than ever before, assuming Dumbledore really did want Snape to kill him, but Harry definitely is growing up, and, even at the end of HBP, I think he can grudginly admit how talented Snape is. Although, I'd imagine winning Snape round might be a little tricky, since that hate seems pretty damn fixed.
D'you suppose – hypothetically speaking, mind you – that if I were to beg you and offer you sexual favours you would write this fic?
Well, I can genuinely say that I've never written Snape fic before, although he is intriguing me now. And, you know, since I'm still trying to work round Remus/Tonks in my head - shoots JK disgusted look - I might need something to distract me.
Plus, hey, fifteen beans. *G*
Re: part 2
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Date: 2005-07-18 06:40 pm (UTC)As for "something else going on with Snape", our minds are running in much the same channel: "Snapes in mirror may be other than they appear." The host of theories about Snape going out in a blaze of redemptive glory in Book 7 have always bothered me; they seem to me to cast Rowling's universe as more structurally tragic than it really is, and they tend to postulate a Book 7 in which Snape's actions are arguably more important than Harry's own. Neither of those things are dramatically sound, and I think Rowling's smart enough to have realized that long ago.
Which is where the baroque theory I came up with (again, linked above) takes off....
no subject
Date: 2005-07-19 10:06 am (UTC)RE: Snape going out in a blaze of glory -
I don't think that Snape's sacrifice is vital to the war effort, no. Maybe he distracts Voldemort or saves Harry, but I do think that harry's the one to be the hero in the end (even if it kills him). However, Snape has been led to a certain point where he either has to redeem himself - and be recognised by his greatest detractor, harry, as a hero (or at least not a villain) - or he has to be revealed as a villian. anything else, especially given the bond that harry has been forming with the HBP-book, just sounds dramatically wrong to be.
it's also handy for the final reveal (and probably fits into Propp's structures, i think) as snape is then a Hero on a Long Quest (to make up for past sins), and harry is the boy hero on a sort-of long-ish quest to save the world. with dumbledore gone, the young hero only has his own wits - and the ambiguous help of the ambiguous elder (or, rather, the Prince in Disguise) - to help him defeat the evil (which has now shown to have been born evil).
If dumbledore isn't dead, i'm not sure that this affects the structure, actually, as the guiding elder is still removed for our hero's coming of age solo trek (again, with the ambiguous help of the ambiguous elder). I'm thinking in terms of the last leg of the journey, where the seeming monster / disguised prince offers food or guidance to the hero, who seems ready to give up or die before completing his quest.
i really must finish that analysis... *pootle*
no subject
Date: 2005-07-18 02:27 pm (UTC)"Half-Blood Prince" is not a grandiose title for himself; "Prince" is a family name, and the fact that Snape (a Slytherin) self-identified as a half-blood in his own notes (and with the wizarding side of the family) makes it a bit desperate, a bit pathetic. This is Snape before he turned to Voldemort, before he turned back to Dumbledore: a tormented kid, but one with less baggage who is still fundamentally trying to prove himself through his skill and knowledge. And -- this is the key thing -- this is the Snape who can talk to Harry.
We have two threads running through the book: One is Harry as student, the other is Harry as Auror in training, basically. Harry as Auror-in-Training is suspicious of Snape as double agent, doubting his every statement, rethinking his every move. Although I have absolutely zero doubt that Snape is truly on Dumbledore's side, the combination of Snape's bitterness and pride and Dumbledore's secrecy ensures that Harry cannot be sure of this.
However, Harry the student is engaged by Potions work for the first time because of his interaction with the Half-Blood Prince. When he is dealing with Snape without all that interpersonal crap in the way, Harry learns from him, admires him and trusts him. He actually learns about Potions, too; what begins as opportunistic glee changes through the book as we see Harry put into effect things he's learned throughout the year. After five years of watching Harry blunder through Potions, we see that Harry has the capacity to be a truly good student -- and Snape has/had the capacity to be a really good teacher. Through the exploration of this "blind" relationship between Harry and Snape, we learn through the textbook about the Harry-Snape friendship/mentorship that might have been.
Most importantly of all is the convergence at the end; just when everyone else becomes convinced that yes, Snape is guilty -- Harry learns that Snape is the Half-Blood Prince. Although it has no effect on Harry right away, it stands there as JKR's signpost that the "real" Snape is as yet unknown.
I also have to argue with your contention that the book feels "unedited." Compared to the sprawl of OOTP and GOF, it feels very edited indeed to me! In fact, I wish there were more asides like "The Other Minister" -- some of that whimsical wandering feeling that gave the canon in earlier books so much room to breathe.
Although I did not like HBP as well as OOTP or GOF (see my LJ for full review), I did like it very much indeed and feel that in some ways the duality of Harry's relationships with Snape and "the Half-Blood Prince" is JKR's finest structuring move to date. So I am mightily pleased with it overall.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-18 04:29 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-07-18 09:47 pm (UTC)That's precisely my point. Maybe I should just call it bad editing rather than bad writing? I don't know. The fact that there were aspects that jarred enough for me to miss the point completely, and have to go back to it and go, "oh, no, wait, okay I get it now" is not necessarily incative of depth. I think it's indicative of poor editing. She should get herself an editor with a bigger red pen.
This is Snape before he turned to Voldemort, before he turned back to Dumbledore: a tormented kid, but one with less baggage who is still fundamentally trying to prove himself through his skill and knowledge. And -- this is the key thing -- this is the Snape who can talk to Harry.
This is all fine. I'm happy with the use of vulnerable younger Snape as a way of bringing the gap between Snape and Harry. I do, after all, sail the Harry/Snape ship. However, it was the manner in which this was done - or, rather, what I saw as more a punchline than any meaningful reveal - that made it problematic for me.
I also reserve the right to completely change my mind upon a reread, too. *g*
When he is dealing with Snape without all that interpersonal crap in the way, Harry learns from him, admires him and trusts him.
It makes the slasher in me very happy.
Although it has no effect on Harry right away, it stands there as JKR's signpost that the "real" Snape is as yet unknown.
I agree with your theory - except this one bit. I don't think that it was done well, and it wasn't the fault of the words or the writing or the characters. It just wasn't paced right or presented correctly or whatever you want to call it - for me. Purely personal reaction here. I didn't like it because it sounded incredibly stupid to me. It sounded petty. It belittled all that was happening around it. I had serious problems with it.
I also have to argue with your contention that the book feels "unedited." Compared to the sprawl of OOTP and GOF, it feels very edited indeed to me!
I'm not talking about length, though. Length is besides the point - it depends on how much story you have to tell / get through! I have to turn to my B5 example again. Each plot has a crtain amount of weight attached to it that feels 'right' or not, at least to me. If you do things too briefly, then the book feels more like an outline. It feels shallow. However, if you belabour each character turn and thought, it feels like you are wading through treacle. I felt that the book was unbalanced because such weight was given to the reveal as to make it seem more important within this book (not the series as a whole, just this book) than it turned out to be. Within this book, Snape as the HBP is more or less irrelevant. It's not until book 7 that we'll see something of it and it'll be important. However, it shared just as much space and importance as the development of the war. Even Dumbledore asks Harry why he's not getting the memory - well, he's obsessing over the HBP. Within the series, that may make sense. Within this book, IMHO, it didn't ring true for me. It felt like a throw-away character point that should have been simmering in the background for a good five years had suddenly been remembered.
It may well work for the series a a whole. I don't care. I was reading one book, that should have been relatively self-contained. It's the same feeling I got after Kill Bill 1 - there was no need for this. I think it could have worked better if it had been a C plot in CoS, to be honest, it would have given the idea more room to breathe, instead of it being forced.
Again, all very personal, immediate reactions. I fully expect the book to grow on me, particularly as I'll probably be dipping in to savour individual scenes rather than reading it as a whole entity.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-18 08:51 pm (UTC)See, I agree that it seems unlikely that Snape would have coined the nick-name himself. But I don't find it at all unlikely that Lily, or possibly Lucius, might have coined it. And even, conceivably, written it in the book as a joke.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-19 10:08 am (UTC)*ponder*
You know, that makes sense - but it's the fight with harry that i have trouble with, where snape prances around and declares himself the great half-blood prince, moohoohaahaa etc.
But i do like the idea of someone offering the nickname as a joke to snape - and if it was lily... *is immediately seized by plot-bunny* No, it's got my leg, get it off!!