Angel & Connor question
22 Feb 2006 12:05 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
kangeikoSomething just occured to me, and I'm sure that the A:TS devotees have figured out the answer to this already.
Why the hell didn't Angel lose his soul when Connor was born? Or, just after, when Darla had gone Pfft!, and he had a tiny, wriggly baby in his arms? And don't go on about his fear for Connor's well-being - he managed perfect happiness with Buffy when the world was about to end.
So?
*brain!cramp*
Why the hell didn't Angel lose his soul when Connor was born? Or, just after, when Darla had gone Pfft!, and he had a tiny, wriggly baby in his arms? And don't go on about his fear for Connor's well-being - he managed perfect happiness with Buffy when the world was about to end.
So?
*brain!cramp*
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Date: 2006-02-22 12:25 pm (UTC)It could also be that he was scared for not only the kid's wellbeing but that he wouldn't make a good father. Given Angel's personality, I'm nearly certain that would be it.
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Date: 2006-02-22 12:44 pm (UTC)I'm more inclined to believe your second reason - that he was convinced he'd be a terrible father, and it's basically him holding a bomb rather than a baby. Hmmm.
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Date: 2006-02-22 01:17 pm (UTC)'scuse me, but no. Not that he doesn't love them, but he doesn't feel more for tham than for Darla. That's fanon which was thoroughly blasted into smithereens by season 2 of AtS.
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Date: 2006-02-22 01:22 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-02-22 01:30 pm (UTC)He disposes of Penn pretty damned easily, but he's with those two for almost as long as he's with Darla
You suck at maths almost as much as Joss.
Liam gets sired by Darla in 1753.
Drusilla gets sired by Angel in 1860.
William gets sired by Drusilla in 1880.
Angel gets the soul in 1898, then comes back in 1900 for a brief return visit in China.
Now, in what universe makes that the same time for Dru and Spike as it does for Darla? Darla/Angel = 150 years. Angel/Darla/Dru: 40 years. Angel/Darla/Dru/Spike: 20 years. Sorry, no way around it.
And of course Darla was his equal with a slight edge of dominating him. One of the things I love about the relationship. Spike and Dru were the kids. Not coincidentally, the kids who never got a clue why Dad left; note that Darla doesn't tell them during her attempt to convince the gyspies, hence Spike eating same, Dru doesn't notice in China, and when showing up in Sunnydale, Spike STILL doesn't know about the soul until he actually meets Angel.
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Date: 2006-02-22 01:46 pm (UTC)Oh, if you're going to use the truth against me... *g* OK, good point, I'd never actually worked out the maths of that - given the amount of screen time the foursome share during S5, and given that I'd forgotten when exactly Angel was sired, I'd taken it to be, erm, longer.
My point remains, though. He loved them as much as he loved Darla. If we're ranking in order of great loves, I reckon it would be Connor first, then Buffy, then Darla (with Spike & Dru as inadvertent add-ons, though it galls him to admit it), then Cordelia (now, this bit I'm not sure about, as he seemed to really love her in S5, but the whole relationship never really worked for me, esp. after the Connor debacle), then Fred & Wesley & the rest. Your mileage may vary.
Spike and Dru were the kids.
Precisely why I think that Angel loves them. They're his 'practice' for Connor. They're never a threat to him, not really - more a threat that he'd have to kill them. Same as for Connor, really - I never thought that Connor would out-fight Angel, ever, merely that Angel might not be able to kill him if it came to it. As it turns out, he could. But Spike? Spike never could, before. And when he manages it in S5, it really, really hurts Angel. I don't think that it had ever clicked for him before, that his 'kid' could actually come into his own and best him.
Not coincidentally, the kids who never got a clue why Dad left;
Part and parcel, really. They both protect them. I still point to the bit in S2 where Angel tries to get Dru and Spike to leave, rather than actually fighting them.
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Date: 2006-02-22 02:08 pm (UTC)Very unfair of me, I know.*g* Incidentally, my rp-partner-in-crime
Here's an interesting thing, though: Hearthrob has Darla and Angel hanging out with James & Elisabeth in the late 1700s, who came across as proto-Spike and Dru, except with paler personalities, which is presumably why Darla and Angel ditched them. But it would indicate that they were looking to, well, form a secondary couple like S & D to compliment and contrast them. I wonder whether that was the wish to have children as well...
I always thought that the Hearthrob flashback summed up the Angelus/Darla relationship beautifully, which is quite different from Spike/Dru -
ELISABETH: (to Darla) I heard he trapped you both in a barn and *you* fled, leaving him to die.
JAMES: It's not true.
ANGELUS: It's entirely true. She hit me with a shovel, wished me luck and rode off on our only horse.
DARLA: (smiling at Angelus) Life is full of surprises.
ANGELUS: (smiling back) Ah, life is boring. You're full of surprises.
DARLA: Of course when you finally did catch up with me in Vienna I had to pay for my sins, again and again.
ANGELUS: Hmm, can you even begin to fathom the things that we did? Of course not. You're in love.
Order of love: yes, that would be my ranking as well, with Wesley outranking Fred, definitely.
Oh, and because it's fun, another flashback quote, which has a Darla sentence which is black irony in retrospect but neatly illustrates something about her and Angel's idea of family. From when Holtz has Angelus captured in Rome:
HOLTZ: I don't want anything. My family is gone. I don't trust you to give me Darla, although I *will* find her, you know that. My only desire here is to discover if a thing such as yourself can be made to pay for its sins. (Holtz digs the claw-thingy in somewhere below Angelus waist (off screen) and Angelus groans in pain) You're a demon. It is your nature to maim and kill. But you were also once a man. If we beat and burn the demon out of your living flesh, will there be anything left? Anything at all? I doubt it. But I'm willing to spend the next fortnight of my life finding out. In either event, you have no soul, you can not be saved.
(A flaming arrow streaks across the room and buries itself in one of the monks.)
DARLA: Sorry it took me so long, darling. (to her minions) Kill them.
(monks vs vamps battle)
MONSIGNOR: (Cross at Darla) Vai' all inferno, demonio lordo! (subtitle: Go to hell foul demon!)
(Darla pushes the cross aside, then sends the Monsignor flying into a wall.
DARLA: No, grazie, padre.
(more of Darla's minions arrive, with a cart. Darla frees Angelus and they climb in the back.)
ANGELUS: Darlin'?
DARLA: What?
ANGELUS: Shouldn't we be killing Holtz?
DARLA: I know, but it's just so much fun ruining his life. He's like family now.
Part and parcel, really. They both protect them.
I think it's also that as long as they don't know, the parents can pretend it might one day get back to the old family again. Certainly Darla staying with Spike and Dru after Angel has left has something to do with that.
Darla timeline
Date: 2006-02-22 02:20 pm (UTC)If she's sired in 1606 in the US, in a mission, that must be a Spanish mission, as the first English colony didn't get set up until 1607 (jamestown). Or are we to believe that she was part of the Roanoke set-up? 'cause that could make for an interesting 1602 / A:TS crossover that would break my brain.
Darla timeline
Date: 2006-02-22 02:46 pm (UTC)I still love the idea of a 1602/A:TS crossover, because the Jossverse can't be ours anyway. Just think of all the Catholics running around in overabundance. Now Liam, okay, Irish, but:
- the Master poses as a priest towards Darla, and I get the distinct impression he's meant to be taken as a Catholic priest
- Daniel Holtz, a Yorkshire man from the later half of the 18th century, is Catholic when it would make far more sense if he were a Wesleyan (he) or at any rate a CoE Protestant
- Drusilla, a girl in London in 1860, is a Catholic as well
Re: Darla timeline
Date: 2006-02-23 12:17 pm (UTC)!!!
That's just...
*chokes*
Sorry, the historian in me is having a heart-attack. There were definitely no prostitutes in the original settlers of Jamestown. I suppose that she could have come in on the 1608 supply shipment when they sent through 110 more colonists, but... *shakes head* They sent through men, gentlemen, at that, which is why Jamestown nearly died out. Noone would work!
If she was Spanish, however, that would 1) explain the Catholicism, 2) account for the mission, and 3) explain the presence of a prostitute in what should be a nearly all-male colony...
I still love the idea of a 1602/A:TS crossover, because the Jossverse can't be ours anyway. Just think of all the Catholics running around in overabundance.
yes, exactly. That works nicely with the slightly-out-of-synch timeline.
*thinks of all the lovely crossover possibilities*
Re: Darla timeline
Date: 2006-02-23 01:37 pm (UTC)*roots for 1602 crossover*
Re: Darla timeline
Date: 2006-02-23 03:00 pm (UTC)Re: Darla timeline
Date: 2006-02-23 07:17 pm (UTC)Re: Darla timeline
Date: 2006-02-24 10:29 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-02-23 12:10 pm (UTC)I completely forgot about them!
But it would indicate that they were looking to, well, form a secondary couple like S & D to compliment and contrast them. I wonder whether that was the wish to have children as well...
That would make sense to me. I always wondered why Dru&Spike never had any 'kids', actually - they sired quite a few vamps, near as I can figure, but not ones they actually kept around. Kita did a really nice treatment of Dru's desire for children wherein innocent young Dru doesn't realise that she can't have kids until some time after she's turned. Hence the dolls.
I think that maybe Dru was Spike's charge, in a way - he devoted all his time to taking care of her, so he didn't feel the need to bring anyone else over.
I always thought that the Hearthrob flashback summed up the Angelus/Darla relationship beautifully, which is quite different from Spike/Dru - thalia_seawood once compared it to the Marquise de Merteuil and Valmont:
That also make sense to me. Wouldn't it be nice to have a fic done in that style for those two? We could even have the innocent young maiden in Dru...
Order of love: yes, that would be my ranking as well, with Wesley outranking Fred, definitely.
Is this more S4 stuff I'm missing? *g* It's funny, I'd instinctually rank them in that way, but the gap between the Wes/Angel relationship end of season 3 and it during S5 is so vast for me that I just had to shake my head and hit the re-set button.
ANGELUS: Shouldn't we be killing Holtz?
DARLA: I know, but it's just so much fun ruining his life. He's like family now.
Hee! That's so true!
I think it's also that as long as they don't know, the parents can pretend it might one day get back to the old family again. Certainly Darla staying with Spike and Dru after Angel has left has something to do with that.
yes, good point.
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Date: 2006-02-23 01:42 pm (UTC)They weren't that memorable.*g* But interesting in what their existence says about the Fanged Four dynamics.
I think that maybe Dru was Spike's charge, in a way - he devoted all his time to taking care of her, so he didn't feel the need to bring anyone else over.
Yes, though consider that sickly Drusilla as we meet her is atypical; she's a lunatic but quite capable of taking her of herself (or Spike) in the flashbacks and post-What's My Line. Also, the very first thing William the vampire did was to sire Mother, and given how that turned out, he might have been scarred for good as far as genuine "children" as opposed to disposable minions were concerned.
Is this more S4 stuff I'm missing? *g* It's funny, I'd instinctually rank them in that way, but the gap between the Wes/Angel relationship end of season 3 and it during S5 is so vast for me that I just had to shake my head and hit the re-set button.
Well, yes, because season 4 shows the two of them coming to terms. They have some great scenes together.
Hee! That's so true!
I know! Black, black irony!
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Date: 2006-04-07 10:35 am (UTC)Hmmm, that's an interesting thought that hadn't occured to me before - that the mother issues actually had a hold over him for the entire duration of his unlife.
you have completely swayed me on that s4 thing, btw. must get my hands on it next time i get paid...
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Date: 2006-02-22 12:42 pm (UTC)My own fanwank is that when he lost his soul with Buffy, Angel had not been aware of the danger. When baby Connor was around, he was, and that awareness saves his soul.
Also, observe that in his perfect day fantasy in Awakening (season 4), when he does lose his soul courtesy of said fantasy induced by a shaman, not just one thing has to be right for him to be happy, but all (he kills the Big Bad, Connor reconciles with him and tells him he loves him, Cordelia reconciles with him and tells him she loves only him, Wesley and Gunn reconcile and make up, ditto Wes and Angel, and then amongst the universal bliss the soul-losing state is reached). Which wasn't the case even in the brief period of Connor-the-baby being around.
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Date: 2006-02-22 12:47 pm (UTC)And does this mean that Angel didn't care about anyone in his life other than Buffy pre- A:TS, as her trust was enough for him then? Or has he simply become more accustomed to living amongst humans and has more demands?
p.s. i am betaing you 'conversations', I promise!! i'll be taking a print-out to germany with me, and will send off comments early next week.
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Date: 2006-02-22 01:14 pm (UTC)That, err, should be rectified. Season 3 was where I almost lost faith in the show. Season 4 was when I recovered it, big time. 5 is nice, but 4 is truly outstanding, and surpasses 2 in my personal estimation because it doesn't have that break in tone and theme the Pylea episodes do in 2.
Also, how on earth can you read stories dealing with Connor and Angel in any fashion whatsoever without having seen the Angel-and-Connor season in its Greek Tragedy glory? That's like someone reading Londo/G'Kar without having seen more than, say, The Very Long Night of Londo Mollari in season 5.
And does this mean that Angel didn't care about anyone in his life other than Buffy pre- A:TS, as her trust was enough for him then? Or has he simply become more accustomed to living amongst humans and has more demands?
Both, I think. He simply didn't have any other ties to anyone in Sunnydale. Buffy's friends were just that, even pre-Angelus, Buffy's friends, not his. And the season 2 flashbacks to the 1950s illustrate what was probably the last time Angel openend up to a human pre-Sunnydale, which of course resulted in disaster.
Whereas the years in Los Angeles made him form close ties with several people, so just being okay with one of them won't do the trick. Moreover, he has taken on a patriarchal role he didn't have in Sunnydale - feeling responsible for his friends' well-being just wasn't the case there.
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Date: 2006-02-22 01:29 pm (UTC)See, I've heard otherwise. I've heard horror stories of just how terrible the season was wrt the other characters - say, hmm, Cordelia and Wesley, for whom I care about even more. So, I don't know. The deus ex machina of the season 4 finale was a perfect excuse to just skip over that (I know what happens, I just didn't watch it) and go on to S5. I may come back to S4 eventually, but thus far I'm not willing to spend +£50 on the boxset.
Season 3 was where I almost lost faith in the show.
Ditto. It made me not want to S4. Still not certain.
5 is nice,
Ah, see, I think that I like S5 and S2 equally (except for the terrible Pylea episodes). the characters are more comfortable in their roles (Fred was terrible in S2), and the fun is back in the show. along with the darkness, of course, but i felt like everything became so leaden in S3 that there really was no hope. Whereas S5, even when people started dying, it still felt more optimistic than S3 ever could.
Also, how on earth can you read stories dealing with Connor and Angel in any fashion whatsoever without having seen the Angel-and-Connor season in its Greek Tragedy glory?
I read it. Well, I read the scripts, I didn't watch it. Couldn't afford the box set at the time, and still am not convinced.
Besides which, *deep breath*, I have to say I'm not the biggest ever Connor fan. I mean, the few stories I've read that feature him & Angel have been, without exception, blindingly good. But, for me, that's more a reflection of the author's ability to make me sympathise with a character that, on screen, just makes me grit my teeth.
Of course, that could be S3-prejudice talking.
That's like someone reading Londo/G'Kar without having seen more than, say, The Very Long Night of Londo Mollari in season 5.
Which a friend of mine actually did. *g* To be fair, she wasn't interested primarily in the Londo/G'Kar dynamic, so skipping most of season 5 was understandable, if still heresy.
And I will eventually get around to watching S4. However, I'm much more into Ilyria than, oooh, anyone else, and we only get Ilyria in S5...
Whereas the years in Los Angeles made him form close ties with several people, so just being okay with one of them won't do the trick. Moreover, he has taken on a patriarchal role he didn't have in Sunnydale - feeling responsible for his friends' well-being just wasn't the case there.
Good point, yes.
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Date: 2006-02-22 01:44 pm (UTC)Absolutely not. Wesley has a fantastic arc in that season, and the Wesley fans I know, even those who absolutely hate Connor, love him in that season most of all. (And then there are all the Wes/Lilah 'shippers going wild over their relationship in that season, but I'm not talking just about that aspect of his arc.) As for Cordelia, season 4 was what made me able to stand the sanctification of Cordelia in season 3 again, because of the Jasmine retcon. Give me possessed!Cordy over St. Cordy any time of the week, month or year.
Season 4 was great for the entire ensemble in a way that season 5 wasn't. (5 was nice, like I said, and centered on Angel and Spike, with some minor arcs for Gunn and late in the season Illyria turning up, but Fred and Wesley didn't have nearly as much to do, or weren't nearly as deeply explored like in 4.) The Angel/Connor story was at the heart of it, but it was also when Fred had her two best episodes ever (not Amy Acker the actress, because I do adore Illyria, but Fred the character), Supersymmetry and Magic Bullet, and her and Gunn's mutual falling of the pedestals because of the events of Supersymmetry and falling out was far better done and more realistic than either their romance in season 3 or Fred/Wes in season 5. Then there was Jasmine, who was Galadriel who took the ring, a very different kind of Big Bad than your usual "I wanna destroy the world" thing. And the guest stars - Faith - with Faith and Wesley FINALLY having the chance to deal with what happened between them - Gwen and of course Angel's stint as Angelus were terrific.
Look, I know Connor isn't popular, and I don't expect everyone to share my love for the character. But from a writing pov, with its tightly written arc from the very first scene of Deep Down to the very last one in Home, 4 really takes the crown for best written entire season, and especially best written entire season for the entire ensemble.
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Date: 2006-02-22 01:51 pm (UTC)Hmmm. I do love Wesley, so.... *is tempted* Kita was raving about this season too - you people are evil.
Give me possessed!Cordy over St. Cordy any time of the week, month or year.
*hisses* Yeah. S3!Cordy was just... wrong. But, OTOH, my fave Cordy was early S2 Cordelia, so...
or Fred/Wes in season 5.
Which, other than 'Hole', was terrible.
And the guest stars - Faith - with Faith and Wesley FINALLY having the chance to deal with what happened between them
Which may be the thing to tempt me to the dark side. *sigh* I do absolutely adore Faith, and to have her share screen time with Wesley would be ... ace.
Look, I know Connor isn't popular, and I don't expect everyone to share my love for the character.
hey, I liked him in S5! And in little bits and pieces here and there in S3, pre-Cordy. But the Cordelia/Connor dynamic never worked for me, and I just didn't 'get' where he was coming from. I couldn't connect with him and that makes it very hard for me to actually care what happens to him. Same thing happened with Fred - it took a very long time for me to view her as anything other than a weak, annoying damsel in distress.
4 really takes the crown for best written entire season, and especially best written entire season for the entire ensemble.
*g* Ok, ok, you win, i'll find a copy from somewhere! *g*
In other news, I need Carnivale-meta. Where is your carnivale-meta??
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Date: 2006-02-22 02:34 pm (UTC)We're utterly in agreement there. Which is why I never understood why people complained about what S4 "did to Cordelia". I'm always: "FOUR? You mean THREE, surely? 4 salvaged her by retconning the 3 abomination into Cordy being manipulated, influenced and prompted by a Power That Was during that period. It allows me to forgive such s 3 lines like "the only feelings I care about are Angel's" because now I know she was Under The Influence.
I do absolutely adore Faith, and to have her share screen time with Wesley would be ... ace.
Lots and lots of screen time. Everything I hoped for ever since Five by Five.
But the Cordelia/Connor dynamic never worked for me, and I just didn't 'get' where he was coming from. I couldn't connect with him and that makes it very hard for me to actually care what happens to him.
Well, if you didn't see it on screen, that doesn't surprise me.*g* No, seriously: I don't think reading scripts is a replacement. Every actor brings a lot into the character, after all, and Vincent Kartheiser certainly does. Also, I'm of the heretic opinion that his chemistry with David Boreanaz easily rivals James Marsters'. As for where Connor came from in general, well, I wrote an entire essay about the boy, so I will just point there.
Carnivale meta:
http://selenak.livejournal.com/137715.html
http://selenak.livejournal.com/2005/02/03/
http://selenak.livejournal.com/138627.html
http://selenak.livejournal.com/138925.html
http://selenak.livejournal.com/139245.html#cutid1
http://selenak.livejournal.com/139426.html
http://selenak.livejournal.com/142199.html
http://selenak.livejournal.com/145168.html
http://selenak.livejournal.com/147248.html
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Date: 2006-02-22 02:41 pm (UTC)http://selenak.livejournal.com/148163.html
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Date: 2006-02-22 02:47 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-02-22 02:58 pm (UTC)http://selenak.livejournal.com/139245.html#cutid1
Also, you might want to stop watching the show altogether. Trust me on this. Season 1 was wonderful. Then Ron Moore who coproduced the first season together with Daniel Knauf left to do BSG, and with him, alas, went moral ambiguity as well as f/f and young man/older woman pairings.
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Date: 2006-02-23 12:33 pm (UTC)That's not good!!
I mean - it's not like we're likely to ever have the second season released over here so it's a moot point, but - noooo! I want more ambiguity, not less!
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Date: 2006-02-23 01:18 pm (UTC)Which is all well done, and I could have lived with Justin as reluctant anti christ, but what we get in the second season pretty soon is just your standard fantasy good versus evil stuff....
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Date: 2006-02-22 03:02 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-02-22 03:09 pm (UTC)Mini rant over. I'm very much enjoying this debate between you and Kangeiko!
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Date: 2006-02-22 03:25 pm (UTC)By now, I've unearthed some more season 4 meta, some by me and some by others, in case you're interested:
season 4, Deep Down till Slouching Towards Bethlehem:
http://selenak.livejournal.com/104073.html
Supersymmetry till Habeas Corpses:
http://selenak.livejournal.com/104252.html
Long Days Journey into the Night till Soulless:
http://selenak.livejournal.com/104813.html
Salvage till Inside Out
http://selenak.livejournal.com/104675.html
Magic Bullet till Home
http://selenak.livejournal.com/104999.html
Connor in general, season 3 till 5:
http://selenak.livejournal.com/192055.html
Cordelia in season 4, by
http://wisdomeagle.livejournal.com/474122.html
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Date: 2006-02-23 12:45 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-02-23 12:39 pm (UTC)...